Do we really need a braking system in our toads?

[TwelveVolt]

Originally Posted by ardbark

Another chart, this one from AAA
http://www.aaa.com/aaa/Traveler/ITT910.pdf

Am I missing something, or is this table implying that 42' and 45' Class A's are not legal in DC, MD, TN and WA?

[tedgard01]

Originally Posted by Dan_public

Ted,

Although not really relevant, I agree with you. That is, except for item 3. I looked in the Woodalls links above for North Carolina. It says, "RV Safety Requirements: All RVs: safety glass. Trailers over 4,000 lbs.: trailer brakes."

Do the laws in North Carolina specify restrictions for RV with toads? Do they define "trailer"? Is the Woodalls article incomplete?

Regards,

Dan.

I make my comments because they were relevant to me. You may not find them relevant, that is fine. Just like I find your comment rude and devisive, but that is just the way some folks are...

In regard to the NC laws, in my opinion the intent of the law is more important in this case than the specific verbiage. I am close to the requirements of the law, even though my vehicle does not exceed the limit stated in the law. Therefore I may not technically be out of compliance with the law. Regardless, I choose to be cautious, and error on the side of the intent. I know that with the braking system I am safer than without, and I am not going to quibble over a few pounds.


Ted

[DMTTRANSPORT]

..........And no person here stating that Towing a Toad without a braking system is dangerous has ever towed a 2500 lb Boat with a 5,000 lb Pick up or is the weight ratio there a non issue? 30,000 lb + Coach towing a 5,000 lb +/- vehicle....JMO

[Francesca]

In California at least brakes-on-toad requirement (or not) depends on stopping distance of the unbraked toad/tow vehicle combination. Though how that is determined is unclear. See this section of California law

[DMTTRANSPORT]

Originally Posted by Francesca

In California at least brakes-on-toad requirement (or not) depends on stopping distance of the unbraked toad/tow vehicle combination. Though how that is determined is beyond me.

See this section of California law

Cali speaks of "towed vehicles" separate of "trailers" .....

[Francesca]

Originally Posted by DMTTRANSPORT

Cali speaks of "towed vehicles" separate of "trailers" .....

Yes, I know- requirement in that case is based on performance, though the standard isn't given. Such performance-based requirements are the norm rather than the exception but definitions are sorta mushy in some cases.

It's clearer elsewhere: For an example, Oregon (a State with no firm "requirement" for brakes on ANY towed unit) only firmly states required braking performance- they don't care how it's achieved. Here quoting page 15 at this ODOT publication:

Brakes:

Any combination of vehicles must be equipped with brakes that are adequate to stop
within a certain distance. While traveling at a speed of 20 miles per hour without leaving a 12-foot wide lane the combination of vehicles must be able to stop:
-Within 25 feet for those vehicle combinations under 8,000 pounds.
-Within 35 feet for those vehicle combinations over 8,000 pounds.

So- if you're confident/satisfied that your rig can reliably do all that without brakes on the toad, you're golden.

[CampDaven]

If it just a matter of choice, my choice was very simple. I like stopping in much less distance. There was no speculation, rumor, half truth, or advertising hype involved.
No children were harmed by my use of aux braking.

[tedgard01]

Originally Posted by Dan_public

Ted,

Although not really relevant, I agree with you. That is, except for item 3. I looked in the Woodalls links above for North Carolina. It says, "RV Safety Requirements: All RVs: safety glass. Trailers over 4,000 lbs.: trailer brakes."

Do the laws in North Carolina specify restrictions for RV with toads? Do they define "trailer"? Is the Woodalls article incomplete?

Regards,

Dan.

Dan,

After rereading your comment; "Although not really relevant, I agree with you." It occurred to me that you may have meant something like; "It may not be relevant if I agree with you....", versus meaning something like; "I don't find your comments to be relevant....".

If that is the case, I apologize for thinking that you were being rude, regardless if you agreed with me or not...



Ted

[IMDSailor]

Sent from my iPhone using iRV2 - RV Forum

[Dan_public]

Originally Posted by tedgard01

Dan,

After rereading your comment; "Although not really relevant, I agree with you." It occurred to me that you may have meant something like; "It may not be relevant if I agree with you....", versus meaning something like; "I don't find your comments to be relevant....".

If that is the case, I apologize for thinking that you were being rude...

Ted

Ted,

Thank you. That's exactly what I meant. Your comments are very relevant.

Regards,

Dan.

[DMTTRANSPORT]

Originally Posted by Francesca

Yes, I know- requirement in that case is based on performance, though the standard isn't given. Such performance-based requirements are the norm rather than the exception but definitions are sorta mushy in some cases.

It's clearer elsewhere: For an example, Oregon (a State with no firm "requirement" for brakes on ANY towed unit) only firmly states required braking performance- they don't care how it's achieved. Here quoting page 15 at this ODOT publication:

So- if you're confident/satisfied that your rig can reliably do all that without brakes on the toad, you're golden.

LOL! Really...leave it to Orrygone, [@ 20 mph 8,000 lbs or over 35'] so @ 35,000 lbs I should be able to stop in 35' 60,000 also HA! , BIG DUAH!

[AggieDad]

What is it about people buying motorhomes worth $100,000+ and then choosing to save a mere thousand bucks for a safety device? Did you really totally empty the bank account when you bought your coach?

For those of you who do choose to "go cheap" when it comes to safety, please post your travel plans so the rest of us can make sure we are not sharing the road with you. Thank you.

[DMTTRANSPORT]

Originally Posted by AggieDad

What is it about people buying motorhomes worth $100,000+ and then choosing to save a mere thousand bucks for a safety device? Did you really totally empty the bank account when you bought your coach?

For those of you who do choose to "go cheap" when it comes to safety, please post your travel plans so the rest of us can make sure we are not sharing the road with you. Thank you.

Same as running cheap Tires on any vehicle....

[TwelveVolt]

Originally Posted by AggieDad

What is it about people buying motorhomes worth $100,000+ and then choosing to save a mere thousand bucks for a safety device? Did you really totally empty the bank account when you bought your coach?



For those of you who do choose to "go cheap" when it comes to safety, please post your travel plans so the rest of us can make sure we are not sharing the road with you. Thank you.

In re-reading the OP, he does not appear to be questioning the expenditure in dollars, but questioning the value based on his life experience of more than two decades. When you spent your $1000, did you get $1000 of safety value, or did you trade your $1000 cow for a handful of 'safety' beans based on the promises and dire predictions of the salesman and the marketing people? If the salesman at the next RV store was offering a $2000 even safer product, would you feel a social obligation to buy that too? (marketing people, listen up)

As someone mentioned earlier, there are two distinct points.

1) Is the aux brake product necessary for safe stopping, or does the design of the MH braking system handle the additional weight adequately? When you pull out of Flying J with 700 pounds of fuel and 800 pounds of water that you didn't have when you pulled in, you have slightly increased your stopping distance, but have you made your vehicle less safe?

2) Break-away braking.

[IMDSailor]

For me it has always been about the breakaway breaking. I run my rig well within its weight limits, therfore I expect it to break as per its design specs.
Having said that, the additional breaking supplied by the tow is appreciated.
My concern has always been the what if? These are highly complex mechanical devices we drive probe to braking down, sometimes catastrophically. My fear, concern, paranoia, call it what you will or makes you feel good, is if my 4000# tow becomes a ballistic missile.
I feel better knowing I have done what I can to never have to say... If only.
To play you have to pay, and if you can't pony up the few extra bucks for an aux break system after buying one of these rigs to fulfill, what I see as a social contract with your fellow users of the road, perhaps you shouldn't be playing.
Regardless of the law, the anecdotal evidenced is that having an aux break is a good idea.
Again, playing the odds is for a casino not the highway.


Sent from my iPhone using iRV2 - RV Forum

[navychaps]

Originally Posted by DMTTRANSPORT

Same as running cheap Tires on any vehicle....

What does that have to do with the OP's question? Also what is cheap? $100; $200; $1000; $10,000? Depends on the individual......

The reason I ask this question is I always look for the best deal available. I could have bought my Blue Ox Patriot from my local RV dealer and paid almost double what I paid on-line. So by definition I got a "cheap" braking system. I shop around for tires on all my vehicles and consider their use then get the best value for my buck. I do not always get the tires from a name brand shop and do not buy the same brand for each vehicle. Am I cheap?

Now back to the OP's question: My rig is rated at 5000# towing. That means Ford (in My Case) and Winnebago after adding the box says that an additional 5000# can be swinging on the rear of my rig. That means the engineering dept says the drive train is capable of pulling the additional weight and the braking system is capable of stopping the same. So, barring legal requirements and the benefits of a break away system, my rig can pull and stop an additional 5000# without additional braking, not that I would do so.....

[TwelveVolt]

Enough talk, time for some action.

For the record, I have three aux brakes from two manufacturers. The first one I bought for next to nothing because it was broken. Thought I could use it to understand the technology and for parts. The second I bought used at a rally when I was in the market for a toad. The third came with the toad. All three were defective. The first seller was the only one to admit it. This fact, plus looking at the technology while repairing them makes me skeptical of their value as service brakes.

My concern, as noted by others, is also with the idea of the break-away event. Rather than have my toad stopped by itself in the middle of high speed traffic, I would far prefer to have it remain attached to the coach.

From the YouTube installation videos, I see that all the base plate manufacturers have added safety cables between the plate and car chassis in recent years. I assume this was not simply prompted by the manufacturers' desire to increase their parts cost. Conversely, none of the tow hitch videos show permanent safety cables.

My break-away electric cable instructions say to clip the cable to a part of the MH chassis, not the hitch itself, in the event that the hitch fasteners fail and it comes off. Since I don't want my hitch and therefore toad to come off, I am headed over to Harbor Freight to get a couple of cables and oval connectors this afternoon. Sidewalk sale this weekend. See you there.

[eggman1950]

I don't claim to be an expert or even knowledgeable of any rig or style of RV except mine. One of our first runs we went into the mountains of Northern New Mexico, wow the angle of climb and decent got steep fast and after about a half hour or so we smoked the brakes. Fortunately no person or RV was ultimately harmed in the experience but it sure increased the pucker factor. When we got home I added a Brake Buddy as quick as I could.

Now what I notice is that the RV and toad will brake as quickly and easily as if it were the RV alone. Very noticeable and immediate effect. It's not a perfect system but I won't travel without it for this and so many of the other reasons already mentioned. Just my 2 cents.

[jmckinley]

Originally Posted by navychaps

Now back to the OP's question: My rig is rated at 5000# towing. That means Ford (in My Case) and Winnebago after adding the box says that an additional 5000# can be swinging on the rear of my rig. That means the engineering dept says the drive train is capable of pulling the additional weight and the braking system is capable of stopping the same. So, barring legal requirements and the benefits of a break away system, my rig can pull and stop an additional 5000# without additional braking, not that I would do so.....

That's not correct. If you look in any owner's manual for any vehicle, you will see a statement like "The braking system of the tow vehicle is rated for operation at the GVWR not GCWR." The Combined Weight Rating is a factor of what the drive train can pull, not what the towing vehicle can brake.

And, just because you have a 5,000 lb hitch doesn't mean you can haul a 5,000 pound unbraked car or trailer. Trailer hitch ratings assume a braked towed vehicle.

[Francesca]

Originally Posted by jmckinley

That's not correct. If you look in any owner's manual for any vehicle, you will see a statement like "The braking system of the tow vehicle is rated for operation at the GVWR not GCWR." The Combined Weight Rating is a factor of what the drive train can pull, not what the towing vehicle can brake.

And, just because you have a 5,000 lb hitch doesn't mean you can haul a 5,000 pound unbraked car or trailer. Trailer hitch ratings assume a braked towed vehicle.

I think he's right, Navychaps- especially since in looking just now at your model year Adventurer's brochure, there's language way downpage per "actual towing capacity" that mentions braking systems on the towed unit. That seems to me to indicate that Winnebago is saying that brakes on that unit are not adequate to stop the full amount of weight otherwise "allowed".

Guess it's really no different from tow ratings on other vehicles- many mfr.s give two tow numbers, one with and one without brakes on the towed unit.