Major Engine Troubles - What would you do? - Page 2

mrv8outboard · 09-20-2013, 01:52 PM

The diesel particulate filter can be cleaned (it is designed that way) it has to be removed and there are two level of cleaning service for them. This is off the vehicle not on the vehicle regen.

Cummins also had known issues with the VVT turbo. I had mine in for a transmission issue and they were checking for the VVT sticking.

Bryan H · 09-20-2013, 03:42 PM

Well, it gets even better. Cummins just checked the CAC, and guess what, it's leaking. Add removal and repair of that item and my approximate bill is now $6k. So bummed about this.

Pelledan · 09-20-2013, 05:33 PM

I know it may be difficult to understand this right now, but there is a silver lining in all that's being done. Your CAC was leaking boost pressure and with that sealed up and in combination with the new turbo, the engine will now have full boost at any given speed/load situation. Both of those repairs will have a direct positive impact on engine efficiency and should become visible as in increase in fuel economy. Don't expect a huge increase in numbers, but 10% wouldn't surprise me.

Dan

Bryan H · 09-20-2013, 05:41 PM

You're right Dan. That's the outlook I'm going to take. It's just one of those things you deal with, move on, and enjoy the coach.

I was only seeing about 26 psi max, which I understand is 5-10 psi low. Not to mention the lack of boost the turbo was making at low rpm due to the variable geometry controller failure.

slick60 · 09-20-2013, 06:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pelledan

The turbine vanes on a VGT open and close via a small 12 volt motor whose lever position is controlled by the ECM with inputs from the engine speed, throttle position, and boost pressure sensors and probably from a few other emissions based sensors as well. At low speed acceleration, the turbine vanes are positioned by that motor to grab all the exhaust flow possible causing the turbine fan to spool up very fast. This causes the compressor fan to do the same, thus creating maximum boost for the given low engine speed peramiters. Before VGT technology, fixed pitch vanes were similarly propelled by the engine's exhaust, but turbo lag was significant because the turbo had to wait for the exhaust to build to start creating boost pressure, plus a waste gate was employed that would channel excess boost pressure out the exhaust to eliminate the possibility of overspeeding the turbo. VGT turbos are more of an exact science in boost technology and with direction from the ECM with sensor input, will create the correct amount of boost for any given engine speed and load situation. It's the turbine vane ring, that part that all the vanes are connected to, that tends to coke up and doesn't allow the electric motor to change its position. The result is a fixed position turbo that will still generate boost from whatever position it was frozen in (or temporarily stuck in) but it is not generating the amount boost necessary for the engine to operate at its designed efficiency. When that happens, the light comes on. When it gets unstuck (however temporarily) the light goes off.

Dan

WOW, Dan I wish I could understand what you said. OH, I did understand the last sentence. While I did not understand a response like this gives me a better feeling that there is an explanation even though I do not understand it. A benefit of this forum.
For what it is worth my experiences with Cummins repair folks have all been good but always expensive. Come with the territory.
Best of Luck !!

JBDISCOVERY · 09-20-2013, 06:51 PM

Very interesting, very helpful, very fact full posting valuable to all of us.
Thanks,
Regards,
Jb

jerichorick · 09-21-2013, 07:52 AM

"Rick, regarding the adhesive used in air filters, I have never heard of a filter shelf life due to adhesive degradation over age. About a year or so ago I had read on this forum where one filter manufacturer had a one-time production problem with a type of adhesive they used that caused pleating breakdown. I could understand a one-time thing like that, but to generate an across-the-board decree that all air filters should be replaced every 2 years to avoid this issue is a difficult pill for me to swallow. I just replaced my air filter after 4 years and 20K miles and there was absolutely no indication that the old filter had any problems at all.
Dan"

Here is what I just learned, Dan.

"Hi Rick,

We have a 3 year shelf life on all of our ECO product line. The service manual mentions a 24 month change out or when your restriction gauge reaches 25" h2o. If you over saturate a paper media, it could break down over time. The media repels water, but if soaked for a long duration it could start to break down.

The ECO BC 11 x 18 Top Inlet 7" I/O is the same thing as a FARR filter. We purchased part of FARR filtration back in 2004.

Our OEM's don't require our ECO Air Cleaners to have a wire mesh inside. Our elements are designed to withstand the engine air flow ratings.

Thank You,
_______________________________________

Danny Berkowitz Parker Racor
Air & CCV Product Manager 805 West Street
Parker Hannifin Corporation Holly Springs, MS 38635
Racor Division Cell: (614) 216-2719
[email protected] www.racorcustomers.com"

So the problems are multiplying. As far as the air filter goes I guess we are on our own after the 3 year date of the ECO filter, in this case. But turbo failure is not uncommon and I believe it is do the ignorance more than filter failure. Many diesel users don't realize the need for the extended cooldown period when coming off the road or from a heavy load situation. Yes, our rigs love to pull hard. But, like a racehorse, they need to be cooled down after. As stated earlier in one of the former posts, carbon and glazing will happen in the turbo chamber and the close tolerances will be violated causing the turbine to not work correctly. But the bearings are another issue that is to be considered. They are very hot under service conditions. If the lubricating fluid is suddenly stopped, as in early engine shutdown, they, too, become oil friers.

I think using a DP is great. It is too bad that when we get our walkthrough by the dealer we are not told of the importance of proper starting, shutdown and maintenance by the dealer. Many headaches and heartbreaks could be avoided in my opinion.

Rick

Pelledan · 09-21-2013, 09:29 AM

Thanks Rick. My first thought was to seek a cross reference to another filter manufacturer, but Donaldson filters appear to be similar in construction to FARR in their "ECO" design. There must be some commonality there that's across the spectrum of that type of filter. Looks like we're stuck.

Dan

Mekanic · 09-21-2013, 05:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pelledan

Thanks Rick. My first thought was to seek a cross reference to another filter manufacturer, but Donaldson filters appear to be similar in construction to FARR in their "ECO" design. There must be some commonality there that's across the spectrum of that type of filter. Looks like we're stuck.

Dan

Your only stuck if you give up. If so just hand over you checkbook/wallet every month.

Keep trying and you will find something that works for your situation.

Steve Ownby · 09-21-2013, 06:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pelledan

Thanks Rick. My first thought was to seek a cross reference to another filter manufacturer, but Donaldson filters appear to be similar in construction to FARR in their "ECO" design. There must be some commonality there that's across the spectrum of that type of filter. Looks like we're stuck. Dan

All the Eco or Eco Lite filters are manufactured by Farr and just relabeled for the other manufacturers.

wb7auk · 09-21-2013, 07:04 PM

Steve,
I thought Parker/Racon purchased that part of Farr?
Anyway you slice it you end up with a just get by filter.

Steve Ownby · 09-21-2013, 07:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by wb7auk

Steve, I thought Parker/Racon purchased that part of Farr? Anyway you slice it you end up with a just get by filter.

Basically the same filter, as manufactured by Farr, is sold by a number of filter marketers including some of the big names like Donaldson and Fleetguard. I agree that it's a pretty minimal filter. The chassis builders like it because is physically small for its flow rating and Farr approves of plumbing it to flow in either direction. It's also less than optimal that every time you change your filter you are opening the clean side of the intake system just increasing the odds of causing a clean side leak.

wb7auk · 09-21-2013, 07:23 PM

Of all the places to cut corners one wonders what brain dead zombie thought the
air filter was just the place to do it.

Steve Ownby · 09-21-2013, 08:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by wb7auk

Of all the places to cut corners one wonders what brain dead zombie thought the air filter was just the place to do it.

It's a problem for knowledgeable owners trying to do the right thing when there is such a weak component in the mix. I think the main reason they use that filter is that it fits in the confined space of a DP and the fact that it can be plumbed in either direction helps in the space equation also.

I've decided that within the next 6 months I'm going to install a Fleetguard Optiair. It will take some less than optimum plumbing but I'm going to use the 1300 size and plumb with 7" tubing all the way to the turbo.

dengraham · 09-21-2013, 08:50 PM

Steve,
I would be very interested in the Optiair installation. Please keep us (or me by PM) informed. I have heard good things about it but don't know how to get the plumbing.

wb7auk · 09-22-2013, 06:00 AM

Steve,
Yes the Optiair will make a big difference and the 7 inch plumb will really help.
Keep me advised as I looked at doing it to mine but I am very close to the exhaust
pipe now and the Optiair is not metal.

jerichorick · 09-22-2013, 08:16 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dengraham

Steve,
I would be very interested in the Optiair installation. Please keep us (or me by PM) informed. I have heard good things about it but don't know how to get the plumbing.

Me too. That big nostril at the back of the coach seems a bit hard to adapt to. The filter is a downdraft inside to outside air flow "L". The Optiair looks like it is a breather and filter all in one and the 1300 is straight. To get air to it would seem to be difficult in my instance.

About Parker Racor buying Farr? It was in 2004 according to some correspondence I have with them, but I read some company literature that indicates 2000. In any case, they are the same company. A rose by any other name... We're are stuck.

Steve Ownby · 09-22-2013, 09:07 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jerichorick

Me too. That big nostril at the back of the coach seems a bit hard to adapt to. The filter is a downdraft inside to outside air flow "L". The Optiair looks like it is a breather and filter all in one and the 1300 is straight. To get air to it would seem to be difficult in my instance. About Parker Racor buying Farr? It was in 2004 according to some correspondence I have with them, but I read some company literature that indicates 2000. In any case, they are the same company. A rose by any other name... We're are stuck.

You just put your finger on the issue and why so many OEMs use that filter line. Most DPs have very limited space back there and the option to plumb the filter in either direction is a big deal layout wise. Mine is the same. The dirty air intake flows into the center of the filter at one end and the clean air out to the turbo is the side outlet. That is ass backward from the actual design air flow but Farr OKed this configuration years ago and sold a lot of filters.

I may be "tilling at windmills" even worrying about this because my Cummins is just under 100k and every oil sample tests ok with no sign of intake problems. On the other hand, it only takes 5-6 oz of dust over an engine's lifetime to result in a "dusted" engine. One serious leak could do the damage. I intend to keep "noodling" on the problem and if I can come up with a reasonable clean side plumbing layout I'll do the deed.

rssnape · 09-22-2013, 02:40 PM

Well the turbo problem, leaky CAC, and other problems may be real, but what I don't buy is the rich mixture causing the EGR sensor to fail. I think that most all these engines use a MAF sensor to determine mixture. This accounts for altitude, and pressure or lack of it from the turbo. Just not sure how it ran rich? Maybe someone else can explain.

jamesrxx951 · 09-22-2013, 04:29 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bryan H

Well, it gets even better. Cummins just checked the CAC, and guess what, it's leaking. Add removal and repair of that item and my approximate bill is now $6k. So bummed about this.

If the CAC is leaking, how do they know the VGT does not operate correctly. You already stated that it makes boost just not full boost. A leaking CAC would cause that. I think I would go after the CAC issue before going to the turbo route first.