12 VDC Circuit Breakers

[tim myers]

The storage bays in my 2007 Journey all have light fixtures. The 10Amp Circuit breaker for these lights in in a dc breaker panel under the fridge. I can reset the 10A breaker and all but one of the lights works.



The next time I try to use the lights in the storage bays this breaker is again tripped. All of the lamps have been changed out from incandescent to LED so there should not be an issue with over amping the breaker.



I cannot find a loose wire or wire that is shorting out anywhere in this circuit. I have however noticed, that the push button breaker offers very little resistance when being reset. Is it possible that this beaker is simply worn out and needed to be replaced?


I read in the parts list for my coach the following "If replacing a gray breaker, all of the breakers must be replaced with the newer white breakers?

Does anyone know what this note is about? I have yet to pull the 12 v breaker panel to see what color all of them are.

[Morich]

Rather than go at the taking the breakers out, which sounds like trouble, I would go at it from seeing why the one light is not working when the other do.
Possibly there is a wire out of place that you have not noticed or something in the bulb holder that is loose and only get in trouble at times when you are not looking??

Since it probably needs fixed anyway, it might let you avoid the bigger job!

Sorry, no idea on the color of breaker unless there was some tye recall on the one type???

[bigb]

Temporarily swap the wires around to a different breaker of the same amperage rating to rule out/in the breaker. If the problem persists the next step is to divide the circuit in 1/2 to find which 1/2 has the short, then divide that 1/2 in 1/2 etc. Divide and Conquer, in the electrical trade it's how we locate the problem.

[tim myers]

All good information to try, I researched the electrical diagrams for my Journey and according to what I am seeing the CB is supposed to be 15A and not 10A, I have sent an email off to WB to see what they say. I will post what I find out.

[4x4van]

Disconnect the one light that doesn't work, and see if the breaker problem persists.

[Morich]

Okay, wandered off for a bit so will take a look with new info. Be back!

[Morich]

Got some info to start a look!

I found it should be a breaker feeding it on a circuit called "JE".
First I should mention that this drawing is as if we were looking at the BACK, so when looking for the location we need to mentally turn the picture around as we look at the front?

So I start with the idea that power is getting to the whole brekaer panel okay because if not there would be massive number of things not working!
Looking at the front, not the rear as drawn, the top set of breakers and the 3rd from the left not fourth, should be the correct breaker.
Maybe try flipping it all the way off and then back on to make sure it is not just half way, etc??

If no good, then how are you set up for testing voltage and grounds? Any meter, etc on hand to do some testing?
What I might next want to do is go to the switch or the lights and test if there is battery power/voltage there or if it is the ground part which is not making it there.

There are several plugs where the power or ground "might " not be getting through but those plugs usually have several other circuits on them and it doesn't sound like a whole plug has come loose but we need to look for one single wire problem.

Kind of like we are putting it in one end of a set of hoses but it is not getting to the other end, so we need to see if it is the battery, or is it the ground we are missing and go along the route to check??

Click this picture of the breaker to get a better look! Remember it is back side, so turn it around .....

Got a hole in the road somewhere!

[Morich]

Reason to think it is the ground more likely than the power?

There is supposed to be labels printed on the wire sides like this example to help us ID a wire and we use this chart to "decode" the labels:
https://www.winnebago.com/Files/File...ical_guide.pdf

So if we look at this drawing, the lights marked with yellow are assumed working, meaning this plug is not likely to be dropped off, but if we look at the lounge light, it uses wire PE to get battery from the switch to the light while the other two lights at the right use wire A! But all three lights use circuit NE for ground.
Kind of educated guess says it is the one single wire path more likely to be bad than two different battery power wires!
We know which is battery and ground from looking at the ID chart...

Just kind of going with the odds----until testing finds different! But to cut the chase down a bunch, we need to find out WHICH is missing before we get into crawling all over the rV looking for the wrong thing!

[tim myers]

I am still looking onto this Morich. There is no rhyme or reason to the breaker tripping. I was out at the storage building a couple weeks ago, reset the breaker and the storage Comp lights all worked. Left them on the entire time I was there, and opened and closed Comp bin doors, even turned the Comp light master switch on and off multiple times. All in all about an hour on site, and the breaker did not trip. I shut the house 12 v circuit off and a few days later we took the Journey out. The compartment lights switch was in the off position. When I opened a compartment and turned the Comp Lt Sw on there were no lights. Looked inside and sure enough the CB for that circuit was tripped. Reset it and everything was ok again.


I did order a new 15A CB from Winnebago and will install it to see if it trips. If it does then I will know I have some wires shorting somewhere and that they short out even when the Comp Switch is in the off position. As in ahead of the switch maybe.

[Morich]

Originally Posted by tim myers

I am still looking onto this Morich. There is no rhyme or reason to the breaker tripping. I was out at the storage building a couple weeks ago, reset the breaker and the storage Comp lights all worked. Left them on the entire time I was there, and opened and closed Comp bin doors, even turned the Comp light master switch on and off multiple times. All in all about an hour on site, and the breaker did not trip. I shut the house 12 v circuit off and a few days later we took the Journey out. The compartment lights switch was in the off position. When I opened a compartment and turned the Comp Lt Sw on there were no lights. Looked inside and sure enough the CB for that circuit was tripped. Reset it and everything was ok again.


I did order a new 15A CB from Winnebago and will install it to see if it trips. If it does then I will know I have some wires shorting somewhere and that they short out even when the Comp Switch is in the off position. As in ahead of the switch maybe.

An intermitent problem with that many different switches controlling different numbers of lightsand not being certain of which light is actually the one which stays out all the time, really leaves it a headache to try to find.
One way to go on intermit stuff is to begin to disconnect a few parts at a time and leave them out of the deal until you feel you have found it works or doesn't but that really is a slow grind and has lots of places where it can fool us.

Looking at the drawings, I don't see one single master switch to control all, so correct me if that is actually what you have???

As a way to "try something" is it practical or even possible to get to this plug which I have marked in purple?

On sheet 2 frame five, I'm seeing two switches control one light, another two switches which control two lights and then one where I did not spot the switch as well as one down lower on the drawing but this seemed to be one plug which might be left loose to see if it clears the intermit trouble for long enough to say the trouble is coming from one direction or the other?
Or is that plug buried so we have to tear things apart?

Searching here as no good answers come to mind!

I'm going out for some time and won't be able to look/ in talk much for a round a couple weeks but thought I might feed you some ideas to sweat over!!!

[Esiordia]

I need to start new thread how do I do that.

[creativepart]

Originally Posted by Esiordia

I need to start new thread how do I do that.

First, we already moved your posts into a new thread. You should have received a notice about that when we did that.

Here’s the link again:

https://www.winnieowners.com/forums/...ng-362916.html

Next, the new post you made in this thread today was not a new thread. You mentioned in that post “ this should be a new thread” but you added that post as a reply to this thread.

We have now moved that post to your existing thread on your initial question about your lights. So you will see that post - even though much of it is identical to your previous posts on this problem. We moved it anyway in case you added new info in this new post.

As an FYI, to start a new thread you first go to the forum that fits your question, then in the forum index (the place you see the listing of all the various other threads in that forum) and you click the New Thread button in the upper left hand side of the page. That will bring up a new thread editing box for you to create your new thread.

Please do not create a new thread for this issue. Just use your existing thread. Here’s the link once again:

https://www.winnieowners.com/forums/...ng-362916.html

[tim myers]

Morich is correct, intermittent issues are very hard to troubleshoot. I think mine has moved to the more permanent stage. Was out at storage doing a few things like chasing a valve extension leak, and opened one bay at a time over the course of an hour and all the lights stayed on. All in all the lights stayed on for about 4 hours. Went back two days later and the breaker was tripped, I tried resetting it and no joy, it would not stay on, so I replaced it with a new 15A breaker with the same result. Pushing in the breaker dimmed all the interior lights till it tripped. This was all even with the master Compartment Lights Switch in the off position. Printed out the wiring diagrams and traced out the un-switched power from the breaker, wire WC. This wire feeds the engine compartment light, a connector under the fridge cabinet, the water center compartment lamp switch, and a connector under the Washer Dryer hook up location. The water center compartment lamp isn't working so that is where I will start looking. Will disconnect things till the breaker stays on and then figure out which re-connect trips it again.

[Morich]

Originally Posted by tim myers

Morich is correct, intermittent issues are very hard to troubleshoot. I think mine has moved to the more permanent stage. Was out at storage doing a few things like chasing a valve extension leak, and opened one bay at a time over the course of an hour and all the lights stayed on. All in all the lights stayed on for about 4 hours. Went back two days later and the breaker was tripped, I tried resetting it and no joy, it would not stay on, so I replaced it with a new 15A breaker with the same result. Pushing in the breaker dimmed all the interior lights till it tripped. This was all even with the master Compartment Lights Switch in the off position. Printed out the wiring diagrams and traced out the un-switched power from the breaker, wire WC. This wire feeds the engine compartment light, a connector under the fridge cabinet, the water center compartment lamp switch, and a connector under the Washer Dryer hook up location. The water center compartment lamp isn't working so that is where I will start looking. Will disconnect things till the breaker stays on and then figure out which re-connect trips it again.

Just a suggestion and you may have things well in hand, but I might go a bit different that might//might not show a problem quicker.
Take no offense if this sounds like the wrong move for you?

I might favor going with trying to read the circuit for stray battery or ground as I added each section. Since you have the circuit Id'd, rather than wait for a small cross putting a ground on the hot side, a meter showing ANY voltage or ground on the hot side when it is disconnected might tend to show up quicker than waiting for a breaker to get hot enough to trip as that may take some time -like a couple days!
I might guess this is a "high resistance ground" meaning that the hot wire has a fault that lets it touch ground but the ground contact varies and it is often such a high resistance that the current flow only reaches the point of tripping the breaker after longer periods or when the conditions change slightly.

Sometimes the contact is better like when the temp changes, there is more moisture in the air, or somebody slams a door different to jar the contact just enough to make a difference?

In the old days when all phone lines were copper, this was a common problem but there was a solution handy. Since there was no way to go look at all the potential spots on miles of cable and you did need to find the cause that day, the solution was to "burn" on the circuit. You put a high voltage on the cable and let it "burn" the cross that was connecting the hot side to ground. Either the voltage burned the cross together solidly or it burned the wire in two! In either case, then you had a good solid problem that you could test and measure how far out the problem was and go locate it!

Sorry, I don't know of any way to "burn" on RV wiring! It might also burn out the TV at the same time!

Slow, tedious and likely to drive one crazy!

[tim myers]

@ morich I take no offense to anyone offering help, you and @creativepart have always been helpful.

Over time I have mapped out the circuits and noted the locations of the connectors that could be at fault. I actually was an electronics tech in the USAF, and still have reasonable troubleshooting and schematic reading abilities, I just don't have the knees for getting into some of the tight spaces out coaches provide us. I looked for common connection points for the bay lighting and focused on the connector under the bedroom dresser, very near the Elec/Wet bay. That connector looked good and since it is in a nice dry spot inside the coach, I only gave it a wiggle to make sure nothing was loose, tugged on a few wires to make sure they were sound. Did not want to pull old plastic apart if I didn't need to.


The light in the Elec/Wet bay did not work, so I tried to remove it. Tried being the operative word, the screws were so rusted in, I could only get a half turn or so before the the head was stripped out. I left it that way for a 16 day trip to Florida, and resumed my efforts early this week. I ended up breaking the plastic up on the fixture and through some pain and cursing finally got the screws out and the guts of the fixture hanging by the wires.



I reset the breaker and it did not trip. I turned the Comp Lts switch to on and most of the Comp Lts worked. The Elec/Wet bay light still didn't work so I jumpered the door switch and the Light came on. I replaced the door switch and everything worked.



One thing of note; Winnebago had used metal screws that were almost 2" long to fasten the light fixture. Two of the screws I removed were directly under a Light Switch that controls the area light and wet side light, could it be that a screw that way too long was close enough to the switch to arc, not sure.



Since I didn't want to have to fight phillips head screws in the future I picked up some 3/4" Self tapping screws. Much shorter but long enough and the hex head will not be as likely to round out as the phillips head. Mounted the new light fixture and everything was still working.


While I was at it I replaced the Genset and Engine bay lights with new, and discovered two more switches that are not working so ordered more. Will replace those next week.


I hesitate to state it is fixed and jinx myself, but I think it is.



Interesting fact, there are two storage bays that are part of my main slide, there is a light behind each door and a switch for each door at the center mullion. Neither of those switches is working, but if i jumper either, both bin lights come on and if a jumper both the lights stay on. I will double check the schematic to see if that is how it is supposed to work.



Anyway, fingers crossed that this takes care of it. Thanks for all your help.

[tim myers]

OK after quite a few months the mystery has been solved. I also have a thread about my Condenser fans that were tripping their respective 25A breaker, and causing me all sorts of grief with my Chassis Air Conditioning system.

My Cummins repair center found a wiring harness that passes over the engine that had fallen down onto an exhaust component. Of the 6 wires in this harness three had exposed conductors. One of the compromised wires went to my condenser fans and another to the compartment light in the Wet/Elect compartment. I have no ides what the third wire fed, as nothing else was tripping a breaker.

Anyway once the bad section was cut out and the wires reattached the Condenser Fans and Compartment Lights work without issue.


First picture is of the damaged sections cut out of the harness and the second is post repair.