12V Electrical System Problems - 2002 Brave 32'

[ctgriffi]

Hi, I'm new to the forum (not new to RVs, however) and am helping some friends with their recently purchased, low mileage 2002 Brave 32' Class A.

Basically, none of the 12V circuits in the coach work, unless you are connected to shore power. No lights come on. Water pump won't run. Nothing on the control panel near the bedroom is active. So, once again, if you are not connected to shore, everything in the coach is dead—if you're connected to shore power, however, everything is good. Here are some additional details:

- The coach batteries are two beefy 6V deep-cycles under one of the entry steps, wired in parallel of course, and they seem to be in good shape: measured yesterday at 13.4v (total) and holding.

- There is a 12V breaker panel (push-in style) over the microwave, and none of those were tripped (which makes sense given that all circuits are fine on shore power).

-Their converter/charger unit is a newer-looking Parallax Power Components unit, model 7445. When connected to shore power, the converter is outputting about 13.6v at the main +- terminals, which sounds right to me. (Owners have told me that they found it covered in cat hair, initially, and they also don't think its little cooling fan every comes on.)

-This rig has a PowerLine 2000 Energy Management System, which I don't have any experience with. Not sure if it's part of the equation on the 12V side, or if it's strictly involved with the 110AC circuits.

What are the likely causes or fixes for this issue? I feel like there's got to be an open switch/fuse/breaker/solenoid somewhere in the mix, but I'm not familiar with this RV model, at all.

Thanks for the help!

[Morich]

Okay, sounds like an interesting bug hunt, for sure! So let's get a few nagging questions out of the way first, not to accuse you of anything but to verify so we don't run by something easy?
One is how the 13. 4 was tested. Was the RV plugged in and the charge system running when the battery voltage was checked? This might lead one to believe the battery was good when we were actually seeing the output of the charger. The 13.4 sounds a bit higher than I might expect if it was the battery alone and had set for a bit before testing, so that it was not just the surface charge.
Will do a bit of looking to see what else might be a bug. Staying home anyway!

Step one after the battery might be to check the "battery mode solenoid" on this drawing at sheet six:
http://www.winnebagoind.com/diagram/...ire_139158.pdf
Cut and copied this portion if not handy to look at all the rest:
Says it is inside panel above step, so is that easy to get to? If so check there is battery voltage on the big lugs on each side of the solenoid that would mean it is working and passing here. Sounds like a logical place to start if easy enough to get to it.

[ctgriffi]

Definitely, question away... wrong assumptions can easily derail any repair scenario.

I see where you're going with that battery voltage, and it's a good one. I'm 95% sure that I tested them while the converter/charger was powered down (no shore power), but I was 1) running around, 2) trying to get stuff done, and 3) fielding questions from the owner simultaneously. Not a recipe for clearheaded thinking, maybe.

I will verify the battery voltage and report back.

And, if anybody knows of a main disconnect somewhere, please holler. Like I mentioned above, I do not know this rig and the owner's haven't had it long: it could be something very obvious/simple.

[Morich]

Also look at the 12Volt panel as it seems to be in the same box above the step? Looks like direct feed from battery to solenoid but a second 16 gauge yellow wire going from solenoid to the panel. Just above the battery shown on drawing.

[al1florida]

Others answered while I was typing, some of what I suggested has been answered.

I am assuming a "typo" about 6V batteries wired in "parallel". That should be "wired in series".

When you measured the 13.4V at the battery terminals was the shore power disconnected? If the batteries did not have a connection to the converter, then after a few hours off of shore power the voltage will drop to 12.6V for fully charged batteries. That you have 13.4V at the batteries would indicate the converter, or other charging source, is connected to the batteries.

Do you see the 13.6V at the batteries when on shore power and then when shore power is off the voltage drops to whatever voltage you measure at the batteries?

When off of shore power what voltage do you see at the converter? You should see the battery voltage.

Is it possible there is an inverter/charger somewhere that is charging the batteries?

Can you trace out the large battery cable (probably at least #2 AWG) and follow it to the converter (or maybe an inverter/charger)?

[ctgriffi]

Originally Posted by Morich

Step one after the battery might be to check the "battery mode solenoid" on this drawing at sheet six...

This is very helpful and something that I suspected, and, yes, I think it's pretty straightforward to access that area under the steps.

Definitely need to read up on all this and go back for more/better testing.

Thank you!

[ctgriffi]

Originally Posted by al1florida

I am assuming a "typo" about 6V batteries wired in "parallel". That should be "wired in series"...

Darnit. Correct. Wired in parallel would double their effective capacity, not voltage.

Thanks for the other suggestions in your message; I will have to get back over there and do some more testing, report back.

[ctgriffi]

I was able to get back over to my friends and look at their 32' Brave over the holiday weekend... the good news is that I got the coach 12V systems working again on battery-only power. The bad news is that I'm not exactly sure what the solution was.

Started with checking the battery voltages again (completely disconnected from shore power, no question), and they each were well over 6.0V and tested at about 12.8V in combination. Plenty of juice there and the reading seemed to be holding steady.

Then, on to the wiring diagram, which proved very helpful: We knew of course that there was a 12V breaker panel above the microwave and that the coach batteries were under one of the main entry steps, but we did not know that there was a whole other, hidden panel behind the top stair riser—that hidden area contained more 12V circuit breakers and the "Battery Mode Solenoid" and "Battery Disconnect Relay" as seen on the diagram (photo attached).

I punched all of those newly-discovered breakers to make sure they were all reset. I also noticed that the battery disconnect relay was missing a 5A fuse on top (it had sockets for two fuses but one was missing)—corrected that, though not sure if both were needed...

After that, with the large "Battery Aux" rocker switch in the up position, all the coach lights, 12V stuff, etc came on just fine with their respective switches. (I mention that big switch by the steps, only because it was confusing to me, initially. Seems like it should be labeled, Coach 12V Power or something along those lines.)

[Morich]

YES! even small success feels so good!
And I do agree that labels seem to be a bit less than expected at times.
I see an odd looking gizmo on top of the right hand battery. Is that some type of manual cutoff for the start battery? Many do have something to cut off the battery while it is stored. If not, the start battery will often have small drains and go dead, things like radio, ignition and such all make slow drains and keeping the unit plugged in will let it still happen as the coach batteries are the only ones charged by the onboard charge system.
A guy can put a small charger on if AC is handy and we watch the water in the battery but a super cool way if the RV is plugged in , is to put a "Trik-l-Charge" gizmo on that then automatically "steals" just a tiny amount of power from the coach battery that DOES get charged and uses it to keep the start battery up to minimums. Kind of a one-way charge but causes a bit over 60 dollars. Easy install etc. with three wires but it can save lots of grief in dead start batteries.
Talking you into more work???
Is this still a question?
This rig has a PowerLine 2000 Energy Management System, which I don't have any experience with. Not sure if it's part of the equation on the 12V side, or if it's strictly involved with the 110AC circuits.
If so, yes it does lots of things, both on the AC and DC side. Requires study!

[Jim_HiTek]

Likely cause is that the storage switch was in the Off position. This is called the salesman's switch by many. It shuts off power to most of the RV. Things like the CO or Propane detectors may remain powered.

You said the manufacturer labeled it as the AUX switch and that's what mine is called.

It's a momentary rocker switch that operates that 'Top Hat' style solenoid shown in the drawing posted above. That style solenoid uses magnets to hold it in the position the rocker switch forced it to the last time it was operated. That's if it had battery power the whole time. If someone disconnected the battery then usually it drops to OPEN for safety reasons.

[Jakm]

I had an ‘03 Brave that had a similar problem. Was parked for a while across from Lowe’s Motor Speedway in The Charlotte/Concord area. Had an ongoing lights flickering and then lost all 12v accessories. After considerable head scratching and meter poking, I pulled the 12v breaker panel above the microwave and everything came on. Turned out to be a loose ground wire to the buss bar on the back of the panel. Just wanted to throw that at u. Hope you got your problem solved but if not.

[NeilV]

I have had problems with the dog kicking that storage switch in the step well to the bypass position on numerous occasions and its really the first thing to check when you do not have 12 volt power available from the batteries. The other thing to check is the 50 amp breaker behind the false panel on the top step which can trip when the house batters are run down low and the converter goes into high charge. On older rigs where the original Magnum converter has been replaced this can become a bigger issue since many will upgrade to a 65 amp converter/charger without upgrading from the wiring and breaker designed for use with the 45 amp converter/charger.

The PowerLine system in the OnePlace panel is to shed 120 volt electrical loads so you do not go over the amperage selected. When you run a high draw item such as the Microwave, HairDryer, Toaster, Coffee Pot, Space Heater, Vacuum Cleaner, etc it will start turning off/shedding the Electric Element on the Water Heater, Switch the Refrigerator to Propane, turn off the Second Compressor on the Air Conditioning, and Shut Off the Converter/Charger when its powered by the same 120 volt breaker as the refrigerator. It prevents you from tripping the Main Breaker or Campground Pedestals Breaker as often. It actually does an admirable job of allowing you to run so much on just a 30 amp 120 volt electrical service. Since it is designed to work even when the Converter has been shedded it is wired to the battery side of the bypass solenoid so if the battery switch is in bypass/storage position it may give a false reading such as showing that you are on generator power.