Can you Daisy Chain Surge Guard Power Protector with EMS?

[69skylark]

Surge suppression is important and there are all kinds for sale. Some work and some don't. I got my first motorhome in 1976 and have been RVing ever since. I have been in RV parks when we took lighting strikes. In most cases the coaches without suppressors that got hit by the strikes had things within the coach destroyed. The coaches with a suppresser had the suppressor destroyed but the RV was fine. I myself have never had a problem. I have had a suppressor on all my coaches plus a $10 voltage monitor that plugs into any wall outlet. If the weather looks bad I still unplug the coach from shore power and start my generator. Unplugging from shore power is as good as it gets. I would use what you have, invest in a voltage monitor, unplug in bad weather, relax and enjoy the ride.
Happy RVing.

[dkoldman]

Originally Posted by migali

I have spent 25 years in power and UPS protection and have taught classes

for electrical engineers.



The Surge Protection devices using Joules as a measurement doesn't mean much . The only real measurement, per the latest revision of ANSI/UL 1449, is the VPR raiting signifying the rounded-up” average measured limiting voltage of an SPD when the SPD is subjected to the

surge produced by a 6 kV, 3 kA 8/20 µs combination waveform generator. The reason some manufacture use joules without the ANSI/UL label is becuase the testing are usually done by 3rd party testing sites and are expensive. There is a lot more then I can explain here but always look for the UL 1449 label on the device. MOVs the main unit of protection in most of these devices.They can only can take a certain number of hits or a large hit before failures.BTW try to collect in the companies that offer "insurance".

After all, the reason we put these devices on our rigs is to protect our hundreds of thousand of dollars.

I don't see a UL 1449 label on my Southwire SurgeGuard 34951? Are you saying I should take it back? and if so, what should I buy?

My unit does say it is UL certified

I did find the below. I am just a consumer buying a product that I believe will protect my RV. Not sure if you are saying this device will NOT help?

I searched for RV EMS with UL 1449 and got nothing but a forum where someone raised the same point 7 years ago (2013) whereby RVs need UL 1449 certified? OP could not find a single RV unit back then?
https://www.classbforum.com/forums/f...-rvs-2446.html

Surely you have better suggestion than simply look for UL 1449 on the label? If you don't find anything what do you do? Is nothing better than something?

Noteworthy article that came out in 2019

Southwire Announces New RV Surge Guard® Innovations, Including Wireless Technology
Southwire Company, LLC has upgraded its Surge Guard® RV Power Protection lineup with new products and features

CARROLLTON, GA. (PRWEB) FEBRUARY 06, 2019 - Southwire Company, LLC has upgraded its Surge Guard® RV Power Protection lineup with new products and features, including UL and cUL listed surge protectors and wireless communication technology. Other innovative features of the new products include elevated ground protection and load side open neutral protection, all backed by Southwire’s limited lifetime warranty and connected equipment coverage. With the release of these new products, Southwire continues its commitment to the advancement of electrical protection technology.

“Our goal continues to be providing the highest level of electrical protection for RV owners,” Southwire’s Director of Sales, Mobile Power & Electrical Safety, Bobby Raatz said. “These products offer several new benefits to our customers, that protect not only their RV but the electrical equipment they use inside.”

Southwire is introducing four new products:

Southwire Surge Guard* 44380 (30A version) & 44390 (50A version)

Key features:

Fully enclosed receptacle covers provide extra protection against environmental conditions.
Fully UL and cUL approved after undergoing the stringent testing and approval process.
Covered with a Limited Lifetime Warranty with Connected Equipment Coverage.
Southwire Surge Guard* 34931 (30A version), 34951 (50A version), 40301 (Wireless LCD Display)

Key features:

Optional wireless communication capabilities (compatible with Southwire’s 40301 Wireless LCD Display), so you can monitor the status of your RV’s power remotely.
Low and high frequency protection
Elevated ground line current protection
RV side electrical protection
Covered with a Limited Lifetime Warranty with Connected Equipment Coverage.
Surge Guard* 34591 – 50A version also includes high neutral current and patent pending load side open neutral protection
“We are excited to bring these new products to market and to continue the evolution of our Surge Guard product line,” Raatz continued. “Southwire is committed to providing multiple product offerings and levels of RV protection to meet the needs of every type of RV enthusiast.”

For more information please visit: rvpower.southwire.com

[migali]

I can not tell anyone what to purchase. There is so much marketing hype in the market place and I am not trying to be a wise ass.



There are many reasons people think a lighting strike is the cause of a voltage spike/ surge. A lighting strike is not a single event. It is a series of very fast if larger and then diminish strikes until the ground and disturbance are equalized.

But thunderstorms cause a lot of other damage. Before I go into that, you have to have a basic idea of how magnetic fields interact. For the uninitiated, the easiest way that I could describe this is to asked people, "How did the older automobile engines produce the 30,000 volts needed to produce the energy for the spark in the spark plugs. The answer was the coil. OK, I then would ask how does it work? The answers I received were interesting. But the coil was the answer. It was only a coil of wire in a round container in an oil type bath.


Whenever a coil of wire has voltage induced in it, a magnetic field surrounds it. Opening and closing the power to the coil produces a voltage spike. Why this Is important? The transformer in utilities is nothing more than coils of wire that transfers magnetic fields between the coils. When utility power is interrupted the magnetic field collapse in the transformers which are nothing more then colls of wire and voltage spikes occur. Utility switching causes voltage spikes Utility brownouts in storms cause a major part of thunderstorms damage to systems. Another problem is with high winds in thunder storms. As power lines are blown together, each power line's magnetic fields interact with each other which can also cause voltage spikes.



Today surge device uses a Japanese invention called MOV. These are solid-state units whose only purpose is to conduct certain overvoltage to the ground. There are many paths overvoltage occurs. A well-constructed system protects all paths of voltage surges. the line to ground, the line to neutral, neutral to ground, line to line. There are many hybrid systems in the market place but buyers beware.



U.L. was originally set up only to protect electrical equipment for safety. Several fires occurred in surge suppression as they became more popular. There was no method of qualifying the devices. Thus, the advent of ANSI/U. L. certification on how well that the sure arresting, surge protectors worked. The box that surrounds the surge devices may have a U.L. label on them but it is the container that us U. L. approved not the actual device. If the the surge suppressor does not have this notation on them (U.L.1449) it is Not an approved device.




I have a $1200.00 dollar surge arresting mounted in my rig but also use a cheap one at the connection at shore power to make certain the connection is wired correctly and it will also take the smaller hits.

Again what type of equipment you use is always your call. When you buy the device think of it this way. In 1976 everything was basically analog but today, we are driving computers on wheels.



Finally,

Please don't fall for the marketing scheme of lifetime warranty all MOV devices fail eventually . Thik of a series of MOVs (used in the majority of surge suppression) as a beach on the ocean . Small waves cause erosion till the beach washes away or a hurricane hits the beach and it is gone in one big wave. That is the life if MOVs.

[dkoldman]

Originally Posted by migali

I can not tell anyone what to purchase. There is so much marketing hype in the market place and I am not trying to be a wise ass.



There are many reasons people think a lighting strike is the cause of a voltage spike/ surge. A lighting strike is not a single event. It is a series of very fast if larger and then diminish strikes until the ground and disturbance are equalized.

But thunderstorms cause a lot of other damage. Before I go into that, you have to have a basic idea of how magnetic fields interact. For the uninitiated, the easiest way that I could describe this is to asked people, "How did the older automobile engines produce the 30,000 volts needed to produce the energy for the spark in the spark plugs. The answer was the coil. OK, I then would ask how does it work? The answers I received were interesting. But the coil was the answer. It was only a coil of wire in a round container in an oil type bath.


Whenever a coil of wire has voltage induced in it, a magnetic field surrounds it. Opening and closing the power to the coil produces a voltage spike. Why this Is important? The transformer in utilities is nothing more than coils of wire that transfers magnetic fields between the coils. When utility power is interrupted the magnetic field collapse in the transformers which are nothing more then colls of wire and voltage spikes occur. Utility switching causes voltage spikes Utility brownouts in storms cause a major part of thunderstorms damage to systems. Another problem is with high winds in thunder storms. As power lines are blown together, each power line's magnetic fields interact with each other which can also cause voltage spikes.



Today surge device uses a Japanese invention called MOV. These are solid-state units whose only purpose is to conduct certain overvoltage to the ground. There are many paths overvoltage occurs. A well-constructed system protects all paths of voltage surges. the line to ground, the line to neutral, neutral to ground, line to line. There are many hybrid systems in the market place but buyers beware.



U.L. was originally set up only to protect electrical equipment for safety. Several fires occurred in surge suppression as they became more popular. There was no method of qualifying the devices. Thus, the advent of ANSI/U. L. certification on how well that the sure arresting, surge protectors worked. The box that surrounds the surge devices may have a U.L. label on them but it is the container that us U. L. approved not the actual device. If the the surge suppressor does not have this notation on them (U.L.1449) it is Not an approved device.




I have a $1200.00 dollar surge arresting mounted in my rig but also use a cheap one at the connection at shore power to make certain the connection is wired correctly and it will also take the smaller hits.

Again what type of equipment you use is always your call. When you buy the device think of it this way. In 1976 everything was basically analog but today, we are driving computers on wheels.



Finally,

Please don't fall for the marketing scheme of lifetime warranty all MOV devices fail eventually . Thik of a series of MOVs (used in the majority of surge suppression) as a beach on the ocean . Small waves cause erosion till the beach washes away or a hurricane hits the beach and it is gone in one big wave. That is the life if MOVs.

If you are unable to answer the question I fail to see the merit or purpose of your post? It is akin to telling some consumer that unless the engine you buy for your auto has some government certified emission protection you could be doing some damage and may not protect you or your passengers I just bought the #1 Selling Ford in the world but I don't that specific on engine label, so I ask you are you saying this Ford unsafe and if so which auto is? and your answer is.. "I can not tell anyone what to purchase. Again what type of equipment you use is always your call."

You also state "Please don't fall for the marketing scheme of lifetime warranty all MOV devices fail eventually " Southwire NEVER claims that their devices will NOT fail; in fact they tell you that they may and they have indicators to show you if unit has failed and need to be replaced. For the higher end models the device will shut off the flow of current to the RV. The warranty they market is for the CONNECTED EQUIPMENT in the RV that may have been damaged if the Southwire devices were properly used. I have not seen any Mfg with any warranty with such a written warranty. Do you know of a Mfg warranty that is better?

I appreciate as your intent as it may have been genuine, but I got nothing of relevance out of you two posts other than it is very old topic and been discussed ad nauseum on forums before. However, I must admit if I ever do talk with Southwire again, I will be sure to ask them about your puzzling posts as UL 14449 has been around a very long time and this subject will surely not be greek to them.

[dkoldman]

Okay here are the final answers.

I just finished talking with Southwire who confirms that I can daisy chain their devices putting my 1 year old SurgeGuard 44270 on the Pedestal in front of the new SurgeGuard EMS 34951. This will give me the luxury of knowing in the event of a spike the older and cheaper 44270 will blow first and thus protect my new SurgeGuard 34951. Even if you worry about gradual degradation, it will gradually deplete the 44270 1st.

Now let's say 2 years from now my 44270 is shot, and my fancy EMS 34951 is still alive. I will by another 44270 at about $80. Similar logic will be applied when/if the SurgeGuard EMS 34951 were to ever. blow.

I am all good, thanks to all who provided insight.

[Old Navy]

Originally Posted by dkoldman

I just finished talking with Southwire who confirms that I can daisy chain their devices putting my 1 year old SurgeGuard 44270 on the Pedestal in front of the new SurgeGuard EMS 34951.

While I can't see it being a problem, Southwire's own warranty expressly nullifies warranty of "connected equipment" if you daisychain your surge protectors.

Originally Posted by Southwire Warranty

:
Nullification of Connected Equipment Warranty
The occurrence of any of the following nullifies and voids this warranty:

6. If the Surge Guard surge protector was not plugged directly into the
power source and/or was "daisychained" together in serial fashion
with other power strips, UPS, grounding adaptors, other surge
protectors, or extension cords

Also note:

Originally Posted by Southwire Warranty

:
The Southwire Connected Equipment Warranty only protects against
damage to properly connected equipment where Southwire has
determined, in its sole discretion, that the Surge Protector did not function
properly because it had defects in assembly, materials, or workmanship,
causing it to operate outside design specifications.....

I have not heard much about how Southwire responds to RVers asking them to repair or replace their appliances, so I have no idea how frequently they exercise their discretion to deny claims.

[dkoldman]

Originally Posted by Old Navy

While I can't see it being a problem, Southwire's own warranty expressly nullifies warranty of "connected equipment" if you daisychain your surge protectors.

Southwire's Warranty Support said it was not a problem, they noted it says "other surge protectors" I have 2 SurgeGuard Surge Protectors and I am 100% sure they prefer every owner of the SurgeGuard 34591 would also buy their SurgeGuard 44270

They (well the one guy I spoke to anyway) actually liked my plan to have short 4 ft power cord that is hardwired to the Southwire SurgeGuard ATS 40100 connected to the SurgeGuard 34591 and then the 30ft OEM shore power cord in between both of their Surge Guards with the 44270 being direct to Pedestal. The the SurgeGuard 34591 is always safely locked in side electrical bay.

I have not heard much about how Southwire responds to RVers asking them to repair or replace their appliances, so I have no idea how frequently they exercise their discretion to deny claims.

This never came up. I believe it to be very rare, because they know if you have their equipment and it is functioning it will protect you 100% of the time short your 4200 joules being spent, which they tell you to replace the unit or a direct lightning strike which nothing can save you from. For the $130 or so more I spent, I like knowing that I have it than not and this coverage in my case is for lifetime of the working surge guards.

See Blue above

[dkoldman]

All,

I have completed this project and I have Southwire's blessing. Anyone wishing to address issues with Southwire's products, how they advise consumers to use, and perspective of the value of their warranty does not apply to me or my project.

But for me, the answer to original question is YES you can daisy chain surge protectors. In my case, I have two Southwire Surge protectors. I didn't wish to sell the old one, and I wanted the newest they had to offer; so now I have both plus 2 wireless blue tooth Monitors (one inside the RV and the other I keep in the Electrical bay, but can bring in the house and monitor the power outside in the RV.

In picture, the 30ft hardwired shorepower cord has been replaced with 4' hardwired shore power cord ( I did the change out myself as my RV warranty has now ended). Both surge protectors are inside the electrical bay which can be locked. At a camp, I will likely leave the basic surge guard on pedestal.

Now I can easily disconnect and leave the 30ft shorepower cord locked on pedestal as it is no longer hardwired to ATS