Didn't expect this battery problem????

winnie32v · 12-17-2016, 04:58 AM

2001 Winnebago Adventurer 32v

During the summer I pulled the 2 12v Interstate #24 deep cycle batteries and checked the water level in each cell and put them on a BatteryMinder charger/desulfator to ensure the batteries were in top condition.
Did a hydrometer check in each cell and all were ok. Fully charged. Ready to go.

I was excited because I just replaced the Continuous Operation Solenoid and was sure that the 2 Coach batteries would be charging while I was driving to Florida and would have plenty of reserve when we stopped.

Went to Florida, parked the motorhome, plugged in the shore line and sat for about 1 month. Had to dump the tanks, so unplugged the shore line, started the generator to exercise it, drove to the dump site and emptied tanks. Frig went to propane as expected.
Back to site, generator off, plug in shore line and all is well.

Fast forward to a few days ago........same requirement to empty tanks. Unplug shore line and OH, OH..NO 12v power anywhere!!!!!!
Couldn't start generator, no cooling to the frig w/ propane....nothing.

AFTER INVESTIGATION......both 12v Coach batteries were fried. Dry cells, and voltage too low to allow for any 12v functions in the coach. Filled empty cells, saw some bubbles so I knew the inverter charging cycle was working.

SO, MY QUESTION. Before I left For Florida, I had just replaced the Continuous Solenoid which may have NEVER worked in the three years I have owned the motorhome. Now it does.
I have NEVER EVER had any battery acid go below the safe level in 3 years.
COULD running the engine....which connects the Coach batteries to the atlernator charging system AND running the generator at the same time (which ALSO charges the Coach batteries) have been too much charging and caused to batteries to "boil out"?????

I not sure what the result of TWO 13 - 14.5v charging sources to the Coach batteries at the same time would do.

If anyone with any electrical engineering knowledge has insight to this issue, please advise.

I also have an "Intelligent electrical" monitoring system on the wall and it now shows that the Coach batteries are at 13.4-6V when I read about 2v with my meter on the batteries. This is when connected back to shore power. Is this what is going into the batteries from the inverter, NOT the actual battery voltage???????? It would seem that this is the charging voltage only. ???!!!

So, I have the unit on shore power now and everything is working OK. Frig, lights, etc.
I now have to buy two 12v deep cycle batteries and replace the bad ones.

If anyone has any information as to why this happened, please let me know. I don't want to have to replace the batteries again due to boil out.

I hope I have explained this situation well enough. Please let me know if there is anything I have missed or need to do.

Thanks for your time to reply.

twinboat · 12-17-2016, 06:00 AM

#1 Did you check water in batteries after 1 month. The charger could boil it out, if it's an old single stage model or the batteries are old. A 1 month check should be routine on wet cell batteries.

In going out on a limb and saying you don't have an inverter ( makes 120 volts from batteries ) or if you do, it's a small one. 2 GP 24 batteries would give dismal performance.

#2 Fridge should stay on, or switch back to 120 volts, with generator running. Just worth mentioning.

#3 Each charging system is regulated to a set voltage. Having 2 running will not overcharge a battery. Many RVs have 3 systems going, solar, engine, and generator ( for AC on the road ) all of the time.

#4 If the batteries shorted out when they went dry, there may be a fuse that blew or a breaker that tripped, causing your low reading at the batteries now. Your converter is powering the house but not getting to the batteries for charging.

Some specifics on converter or inverter/charger will help. An upgrade to a 3 or 4 stage, charger will save batteries.

While traveling did you notice the voltage reading on the engine batteries. An alternator regulator can fail, causing overcharging but it would effect all of the batteries and show as high voltage.

I personally would install 2, GP CG2, 6 volt batteries. You would probably double your capacity and get real deep cycle service. Remember to hook them up in series.

**macnut** · 12-17-2016, 08:32 AM

I had a very similar problem until I upgraded my single stage converter/charger to a 3 stage unit. I now keep it plugged in all the time, even when in storage, and the batteries stay pristine.

Rockwood27 · 12-17-2016, 08:36 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by macnut

I had a very similar problem until I upgraded my single stage converter/charger to a 3 stage unit. I now keep it plugged in all the time, even when in storage, and the batteries stay pristine.

X2!

winnie32v · 12-17-2016, 08:51 AM

Thanks for the input for upgrading my system, BUT, this never occurred before so I was wondering what changed to cause this problem. The only thing I changed was to fix the solenoid.????!!!!!
Another motorhome mystery to solve.

Anyway, I will definitely check the fluid in my batteries WEEKLY from now on.
Not sure about the 6v change.

I don't know that much about it.... seems that two 12's would be better than two 6's.....or did open up a can of worms?

twinboat · 12-17-2016, 09:02 AM

It's all about capacity in the given space.

A pair of 6 volts will give you about 225 amp hours at 12 volts.

A pair of gp 24s will give you about 130 amp hours.

You could use larger 12 volt batteries but the cost goes up.

The GC2 batteries are built tough to bounce around in golf cars all day, getting run down, and charged at night. They are cheap because of quantity of production.

As far as your dry batteries, keep an eye on them while sitting and or driving. If they only go dry driving, something could be wrong with your charging system. But that should effect the start battery also.

tderonne · 12-17-2016, 10:04 AM

At a couple points in your story, it sounds like the master disconnect if off (batteries disconnected). When your are plugged in, you'll see 12+ volts on the house side, 12 volt systems will work, but the batteries aren't hooked to anything. This sounds like what you saw when you said there was 13.X volts on the meter and 2 with a meter at the batteries. It would create a situation where everything goes dead when you unplug too, as the converter was powering everything.

Not that this is your only issue, but seems like it may have happened at some point. A poor/corroded connection could act like a disconnect too, and maybe even intermittently.

OLYLEN · 12-17-2016, 10:41 AM

I didn't see how old the batteries were. Could be just time to replace the batteries.

LEN

Hikerdogs · 12-17-2016, 03:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by twinboat

It's all about capacity in the given space.

A pair of 6 volts will give you about 225 amp hours at 12 volts.

A pair of gp 24s will give you about 130 amp hours.

You could use larger 12 volt batteries but the cost goes up.

The GC2 batteries are built tough to bounce around in golf cars all day, getting run down, and charged at night. They are cheap because of quantity of production.

As far as your dry batteries, keep an eye on them while sitting and or driving. If they only go dry driving, something could be wrong with your charging system. But that should effect the start battery also.

Along the way someone has changed the original batteries for smaller ones. Our 2001 Adventurer came with 2 group 29 batteries from the factory. The optional batteries at the time were group 31's. When our group 29's failed after 8 years we replaced them with group 31's. When they did start to fail they needed to be charged more often and used considerably more water.

I'm inclined to believe the group 24's you have are failing. If the only thing that has changed is the solenoid the only difference should be that the batteries now charge while under way as well as when on shore power.

When the engine is running both the house batteries and the chassis battery are being charged by the alternator. When on shore power the house batteries only are being charged by the house charger. If the alternator is overcharging It would also overcharge the chassis battery and would have destroyed it long ago. If the shore power charger was failing it should have destroyed the house batteries regardless of what you did with the solenoid.

As for running the generator and the engine the system defaults to the engine alternator to avoid overcharging the batteries.

garbonz · 12-17-2016, 04:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by twinboat

It's all about capacity in the given space.

A pair of 6 volts will give you about 225 amp hours at 12 volts.

A pair of gp 24s will give you about 130 amp hours.

You could use larger 12 volt batteries but the cost goes up.

The GC2 batteries are built tough to bounce around in golf cars all day, getting run down, and charged at night. They are cheap because of quantity of production.

As far as your dry batteries, keep an eye on them while sitting and or driving. If they only go dry driving, something could be wrong with your charging system. But that should effect the start battery also.

Ummmm a pair of 6's will give you about the same as 12's of the same physical size. Bigger cells and better life probably but no more AH's

winnie32v · 12-17-2016, 04:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by OLYLEN

I didn't see how old the batteries were. Could be just time to replace the batteries.

LEN

Batteries were in the unit when I bought it, about 3 years ago. I suspect that they are due for replacement.

winnie32v · 12-17-2016, 05:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hikerdogs

Along the way someone has changed the original batteries for smaller ones. Our 2001 Adventurer came with 2 group 29 batteries from the factory. The optional batteries at the time were group 31's. When our group 29's failed after 8 years we replaced them with group 31's. When they did start to fail they needed to be charged more often and used considerably more water.

I'm inclined to believe the group 24's you have are failing. If the only thing that has changed is the solenoid the only difference should be that the batteries now charge while under way as well as when on shore power.

When the engine is running both the house batteries and the chassis battery are being charged by the alternator. When on shore power the house batteries only are being charged by the house charger. If the alternator is overcharging It would also overcharge the chassis battery and would have destroyed it long ago. If the shore power charger was failing it should have destroyed the house batteries regardless of what you did with the solenoid.

As for running the generator and the engine the system defaults to the engine alternator to avoid overcharging the batteries.

Thanks, Hikerdogs.
Good to hear from someone who knows the unit.

About the battery size....I did some measuring and was considering buying #27's, there is room in the tray for the extra length BUT I was concerned about getting them in because you have the top step "in the way' of the opening and this may make it difficult to place the batteries on the tray.
I'll have to do some more measuring and be sure of the fit factor.
I want to put in the 'biggest' battery that will fit.

How did you get the 31's in the battery compartment??? I'm sure your compartment is under the entry steps, like mine. I will have to do some more measuring. Maybe if I put the battery in as 'small side down' and slide the rest in to the tray....I'll have to really explore this....I think this may be the solution.
Advise, please.

Also, maybe in the instruction case there will be an identification of the original battery.

I've already come to the conclusion that the 24's are failing/failed and need to be replaced.

I am travelling in my toad now and expect to get back to the batteries after New Year's.
Thanks for the reply.

wa8yxm · 12-17-2016, 05:35 PM

Three things
First: What is the make and model of your converter? We can help more if we know that, a 2001, may have a good unit, or ... Well, not so good.

Second: When you replace those deep fried Group 24's Consider (if you have the head room) going with a pair of GC-2 in series (Google 12 volt side of life for hook up instructions)

Reason: G-24 is about 75 AH at best and most likely a MRINE/deep cycle starting battery.. NOT your best choice Total AH 150
GC-2 is 210-130 AH, same foot print and DEEP CYCLE. Your best choice, also about the same price, bit heavier however and wired differently.

Finally.. How your charging system "Works" (or not)_

Shore power is distributed by the MAIN breaker box, Assuming you do not have a converter charger one of the Branch breakers is labled, most likely CONV.. Make sure this breaker is not tripped (TURN it off and on) ALso I've found many RV's have a few screws loose.. Like the screw that holds the wire to the CONV breaker, or the other wires in that cable on teh bus. bars.

For some reasons converters do not work if there is no 120 volts AC to convert.

If you have an inverter/charger.. Same difference only label is different.

Now with batteries PHYSICALLY disconnected measure voltage at converter out.. Report

Check fuses in/on converter (If converter is part of your power panel it will likely be the ones on the right, often 2 or 3 of 'em)

Report and we can provide additional assistance.

tderonne · 12-17-2016, 08:42 PM

Many of us have 4 GC2's in units like yours (Winnebago, gas chassis, under the steps):

A thread with more info.

nothermark · 12-17-2016, 09:03 PM

DIMENSIONS IN INCHES*: 10.38" 7.13" 10.88" LxWxH
Amp Hours (AH): 225 - See more at: https://www.batterystuff.com/kb/tool....FeenlOvg.dpuf

DIMENSIONS IN INCHES*: 10.38" 7.13" 10.88" LxWxH
Amp Hours (AH): 225 - See more at: https://www.batterystuff.com/kb/tool....FeenlOvg.dpuf
Group 24 are rated at 80 AH ea so 160 AH total.

GC-2 are rated at 225 AH - That is hardly double the capacity though it might be double the cost.

The problem is the GC-2 is ~2 inches taller so won't fit in the frame tray on most C's and F-53 chassis. Yes, one can modify things to get them in somewhere but it is not usually worth the effort and expense. That leaves me wondering why folks blithely advise putting them in anything other than a DP.

I am pretty sure one can go to two group 27's for 180 AH. Mine came that way. It's tight but they fit.

It sounds like you found out the hard way that you need to check your battery water more often. Poop happens. I'd have expected to be adding water monthly when sitting plugged in and living in the unit. I'd be especially concerned about water if I had a single stage charger as you probably do. You should know that or find out if you do not know.
DIMENSIONS IN INCHES*: 10.38" 7.13" 10.88" LxWxH
Amp Hours (AH): 225 - See more at: https://www.batterystuff.com/kb/tool...dpufDIMENSIONS IN INCHES*: 10.38" 7.13" 10.88" LxWxH
Amp Hours (AH): 225 - See more at: https://www.batterystuff.com/kb/tool...dpufDIMENSIONS IN INCHES*: 10.38" 7.13" 10.88" LxWxH
Amp Hours (AH): 225 - See more at: https://www.batterystuff.com/kb/tool...dpufDIMENSIONS IN INCHES*: 10.38" 7.13" 10.88" LxWxH
Amp Hours (AH): 225 - See more at: https://www.batterystuff.com/kb/tool...dpufDIMENSIONS IN INCHES*: 10.38" 7.13" 10.88" LxWxH
Amp Hours (AH): 225 - See more at: https://www.batterystuff.com/kb/tool...dpufDIMENSIONS IN INCHES*: 10.38" 7.13" 10.88" LxWxH
Amp Hours (AH): 225 - See more at: https://www.batterystuff.com/kb/tool....FeenlOvg.dpuf

DIMENSIONS IN INCHES*: 10.38" 7.13" 10.88" LxWxH
Amp Hours (AH): 225 - See more at: https://www.batterystuff.com/kb/tool....FeenlOvg.dpuf

DIMENSIONS IN INCHES*: 10.38" 7.13" 10.88" LxWxH
Amp Hours (AH): 225 - See more at: https://www.batterystuff.com/kb/tool....FeenlOvg.dpuf

nothermark · 12-18-2016, 06:36 AM

Here is a cleaned up version of my previous reply. The site I took dimensions from hid the fact that they pasted a lot more than I highlighted and I did not see it last night after I hit the post button.

GC-2 are rated at 225 AH - That is hardly double the capacity though it might be double the cost.

The problem is the GC-2 is ~2 inches taller so won't fit in the frame tray on most C's and F-53 chassis. Yes, one can modify things to get them in somewhere but it is not usually worth the effort and expense. That leaves me wondering why folks blithely advise putting them in anything other than a DP.

I am pretty sure one can go to two group 27's for 180 AH. Mine came that way. It's tight but they fit.

It sounds like you found out the hard way that you need to check your battery water more often. Poop happens. I'd have expected to be adding water monthly when sitting plugged in and living in the unit. I'd be especially concerned about water if I had a single stage charger as you probably do. You should know that or find out if you do not know.

GC2
DIMENSIONS IN INCHES*: 10.38" 7.13" 10.88" LxWxH
Amp Hours (AH): 225

Grp 24
DIMENSIONS IN INCHES*: 11.13" 6.60" 9.25" LxWxH
Amp Hours (AH): 80

Grp 27

DIMENSIONS IN INCHES*: 12.00" 6.63" 9.06" LxWxH
Amp Hours (AH): 90

Kenvb · 12-18-2016, 09:28 AM

i was told by a few fellow rvers on here not to run the on board generator while driving.it charges too much. maybe thats why your batterys were boiled out. i get mixed up with the switch position for batterys too.

twinboat · 12-18-2016, 11:07 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kenvb

i was told by a few fellow rvers on here not to run the on board generator while driving.it charges too much. maybe thats why your batterys were boiled out. i get mixed up with the switch position for batterys too.

Who ever told you that doesn't understand battery charging.

Charging systems designed for 12 volt batteries output up to around 14 volts, until the battery reaches that voltage. Then they cut back to a maintaining voltage of between 13.2 to 13.6. There is a bit more to it then that but not important to this post.

At the lower voltage, the battery will not accept high amperage.

When each charging source senses the 14ish voltage, it cuts back. There is no combining of voltages or amprage at that point, that overcharge batteries.

Equalizing batteries entails overcharging them. The charger raises the voltage above 15 volts so more amps are forced in. That stirs up the electrolite.

You can hook 4 or more regulated charging sources to a full battery and they will not overcharge it.

Unplanned · 12-20-2016, 10:16 PM

I swapped out my group 24's for 2 group 31's and am very happy with them. I used the dual purpose ones that we sold to truckers that had microwaves and electric blankets in their sleepers. If they worked for them, I figured they would work for me just running led lights, water pump, fridge on propane, etc. No big loads, so they will keep me happy for 4-5 days dry camping. No solar panels, yet. They were a tight fit, but they do go in.
Just a thought, but the OP's "Salesman Switch" isn't off by any chance? Something like that happened to me, and it was that switch!

4x4van · 12-21-2016, 04:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by garbonz

Ummmm a pair of 6's will give you about the same as 12's of the same physical size. Bigger cells and better life probably but no more AH's

The advantage of 6v batteries over 12v is not just the Ah capacity (25-40% higher Ah with the same footprint) but the fact that they are TRUE deep cycle that will perform better under the rigors of RV use. If you can fit the additional height, 6v is the way to go for both Ah's AND the actual performance of those Ah's.