Does 110vac vs 120vac Output for an Inverter Matter?

[dkoldman]

I recently lost my OEM 1000watt Magnum Dynamics Inverter due to impact damage from a flat tire.

To replace I found an inexpensive 2200 watt off brand unit compared to the Magnum Dynamics 1000 watt unit.

The off brand unit advertised the output voltage to be 115vac +/-5vac

I have the unit and it looks to be a viable option but actual output voltage is 110vac. They sent me a communication cable and software where I can adjust to 120vac, but it has not worked.

Now I am pondering does it really matter, or should I return?

I should add that the unit comes with an incredible wireless remote display that I just love. Thus far I have not seen any other Inverter Mfg with anything close.

[powercat_ras]

120 VAC is nominal for 60 Hz electrical power. An acceptable range is 108 - 132 volts, and should not go outside this range under any condition from no load to full load.

Personally I'd try to get them to trade you for a different unit that has a no load output of at least 115 VAC.

[creativepart]

Can you tell us the name, etc of this bargain inverter? Or direct us to an info page on their website?

[Morich]

How much to worry the issue is going to take lots of thinking as it is near to being right on the border for good or bad!
There's ways to argue it both directions. We shouldn't have to buy things that are borderline. But if we send it back is the replacement any better?

What I know is that electronic components are not all the same. Something as simple as a resister will have various tolerances in what resistance they actually have. Higher quality, more expensive resisters are judged more critically then the normal.
And that goes for a lot of the parts put on boards. Some vary 5%, some 20%, and when somebody dips in the parts bin to push a few into place, they never know if that part is super fine or just on the border.
If you get one that all are super fine, you get a different output than if there are three in a row that are on the border of being thrown out.

The 110 is not the best but it does fit the standard used here in the US for the normal house voltage. And we often find house voltages that are below that and we never know it. How much does it add to the failures of things like the frig? We never know because we rarely are watching that close.
In rural areas or where things are not regulated very well, the voltage rises and falls every day. Every time the diary farm cranks up or the boat factory comes online, the voltage changes!
How long it stays off the spec, then comes down to how good the utility watches !
If it is something the state watches really close, the utility watches as they don't want the bad rep. But if the state is not watching, nobody watches!

[dkoldman]

Originally Posted by powercat_ras

120 VAC is nominal for 60 Hz electrical power. An acceptable range is 108 - 132 volts, and should not go outside this range under any condition from no load to full load.

Personally I'd try to get them to trade you for a different unit that has a no load output of at least 115 VAC.

This is the advice I will follow. They told me last night they are not sure why the PC Software is not working. They stated they will replace if we can get it to 120vac, but from what I am learning, if for some reason we can't get adjusted and they not replace, I will keep because the unit has a lot of potential.

Not to keep throwing electrical stuff at you, because you may have had your full with it, but they were also telling me of another way to make the output 120volts. Their premise is incredibly close to what you advise about the Onan EC-30. Their Engineering is checking to verify if the resistance is changed to be 110k on R50 it will output around 120vac although the display may show lower value. I believe at current is R50 has 104k resistance.

[dkoldman]

Originally Posted by creativepart

Can you tell us the name, etc of this bargain inverter? Or direct us to an info page on their website?

Yes, it is a Yitranic Inverter. I had been purposely withholding the name because I cannot vouch for the product (yet).

Disclaimer: For anyone reading; while I madly like this inverter's potential; I cannot say it is a viable purchase and I am not recommending this product(yet).

With that said, I can say that they have been incredibly supportive.

I had an opportunity / situation where I had to buy an Inverter, and to get the Magnum Dynamics in a 2000 watt it was $600 And that included nothing new technology wise from previous OEM 1000watt Magnum Dynamics 5 years ago.

Now why I like, or should I say why I hope this unit will work.

1. Graphical Remote Display.
2. It shows Power Consumption, Input & Output voltage
3. Wireless Remote Option, I bought 2nd remote so one will be in the main hallway and the other I can actually take it with me. It works in the house.
4. USB C port
5. 2200watts vs 1000watts
6. Easy to open case if fuses need to be replaced
7. Low price
8. Technical Support

I am sure there will be some limitations like the one referenced in this thread of 110vac output, but they seem focused on trying to find a resolution.

I purchased off ebay at https://www.ebay.com/itm/19615162468...17QH4FDGGWXRC8

Sometimes you take risks knowing well in advance it may not work. This is one of those times for me. I am hoping to have paid $200 to get all of the things I would like to have to give my RV a modern look versus overpaying for a known product that for me to replace $500 - $600

[Ray,IN]

All approved AC electrical appliances are required to operate within the ranges powercat posted. What does the data-plate state-not owners manual?

[dkoldman]

Originally Posted by Ray,IN

All approved AC electrical appliances are required to operate within the ranges powercat posted. What does the data-plate state-not owners manual?

On bottom of Inverter it states

Input 12vdc
Output 110vac

The manual says Output 115vac +/- 5vac, but the ebay Auction says 110vac

The context is that they acknowledge for USA it should be 120vac. To their credit they are helping me to adjust, it is just that thus far all methods have failed.

I created the thread because if in the end game, if they are not successful and I was stuck with 110vac if were ok for me to keep because I really like what it does otherwise. I am sure they would accept a return and refund me my money if I insisted, but I did not wish to insist to have a return for something that may not matter or may that much difference.

I tried a different laptop today with their software and got a tad further. At least I got no errors, but it did not WRITE the 120 voltage I had set. The software is all in Chinese so I am hoping that they may have me clicking on a button that does not actually trigger the write function?

Of late I am not fairing too well on electrical problems, on one hand I got PowerCat speaking in Technical Electrical Engineering speak on AGS, and now I got a pure Chinese PC software program, make me wish for Chinglish right now

I will post a picture of what it looks like when I establish direct connection with the Inverter's processor so we all can get a chuckle at the language

[Ray,IN]

Perhaps that manual and dataplate are mimicking the U.S.A. Many of use say 110 or 115, when actually it's 120VAC; and all are within the acceptable voltage limits.



Translate Chinese into US English: https://www.deepl.com/en/translator/l/en/zh
When using a smart phone download: https://play.google.com/store/apps/d...slate&hl=en_AU

[Morich]

When we get into talk on AC voltage, it can quickly run into such deep thought that I try to avoid the issue.
If you want to know the TRUE voltage of AC, it's going to be a trek as the voltage is actually changing constantly if we get into the real "Greek" of the issue. Voltage is stated normally as RMS (Root Mean Square!) and if you want to go there, plan on me skipping that issue! I NEVER want to know that much again! Just let the meter give me a number to use and not try to understand where that number comes from!

Use care before deciding if you want to go here:
The root mean square is a type of mean. It is useful when trying to measure the average “size” of numbers, where their sign is unimportant, as the squaring makes all of the numbers non-negative. The most common case of using the root mean square is when calculating the standard deviation of a set of numbers x1, …, xn.

HUH? Say what!

[dkoldman]

Originally Posted by Morich

When we get into talk on AC voltage, it can quickly run into such deep thought that I try to avoid the issue.
If you want to know the TRUE voltage of AC, it's going to be a trek as the voltage is actually changing constantly if we get into the real "Greek" of the issue. Voltage is stated normally as RMS (Root Mean Square!) and if you want to go there, plan on me skipping that issue! I NEVER want to know that much again! Just let the meter give me a number to use and not try to understand where that number comes from!

Use care before deciding if you want to go here:
The root mean square is a type of mean. It is useful when trying to measure the average “size” of numbers, where their sign is unimportant, as the squaring makes all of the numbers non-negative. The most common case of using the root mean square is when calculating the standard deviation of a set of numbers x1, …, xn.

HUH? Say what!

You mean you not willing to help me develop a pure straight line wave algorithm. Why did it have to be a sine wave. I remember my freshman year of college and I had a Professor that would always say "No Negative" I use to wonder what number was that

Funny you should post this, because just the other day, I was checking voltage with favorite digital meter and I could not get any AC voltage, I was starting to freak out when I realize I had not set the mode from DC to AC I told my wife I think I need to get one of the new Digital meters that auto detects. The RV is suppose to be a fun hobby, not too much work and not too much thinking. Hopefully I don't have to learn Chinese, Electrical Engineering design, and Surface mount assembly to install the Inverter of my choice with 120vac output.

[wahoonc]

Interestingly enough the US standard was 110V/220V about 75 years ago. I wonder if China just hasn't caught up.

You could probably run with the 115V if you had to, but it would leave you on the low side in a high-draw situation.

I have a sketchy 30 amp outlet at my house, when the RV kicks the AC on it will dump to about 114v then come back up to 117v running. In a resting state, I get 121v at the plug and 125v at the main panel. I have a cable run that is a bit over the optimum and did not bump the gauge up when I ran it. Mainly due to cost. The 30 amp was supposed to be for occasional use only and was intended to be removed in the future. Such is life.

Aaron

[bigb]

Originally Posted by wahoonc

Interestingly enough the US standard was 110V/220V about 75 years ago. I wonder if China just hasn't caught up.

You could probably run with the 115V if you had to, but it would leave you on the low side in a high-draw situation.

I have a sketchy 30 amp outlet at my house, when the RV kicks the AC on it will dump to about 114v then come back up to 117v running. In a resting state, I get 121v at the plug and 125v at the main panel. I have a cable run that is a bit over the optimum and did not bump the gauge up when I ran it. Mainly due to cost. The 30 amp was supposed to be for occasional use only and was intended to be removed in the future. Such is life.

Aaron

I would not consider a dip to 114V on AC startup and running at 117V sketchy at all, those are good numbers.

[wahoonc]

Originally Posted by bigb

I would not consider a dip to 114V on AC startup and running at 117V sketchy at all, those are good numbers.

They are decent. If it wasn't for my Electric Member Co-op being good it could get ugly.

We have family an hour up the road that isn't on a Co-op and their power sucks. Their main panel reads 121v on a good day and quite often will dip to 117v during high draw periods. Which wouldn't work here. They have issues with electrical stuff all the time due to low voltage and minimal wiring size.

I ran a 10awg direct burial about 109 ft is memory serves me, I really should have bumped up to an 8awg to minimize voltage drop. But it works so I am not complaining.

Aaron

[Ray,IN]

Over 108 volts is not going to harm an appliance, over 132VAC will harm sensitive electronics.

[dkoldman]

Originally Posted by Ray,IN

Over 108 volts is not going to harm an appliance, over 132VAC will harm sensitive electronics.

In my case, given this Inverter will be installed in an RV and given the actual voltage being 110.8vdc (sometimes the display will flash 111vdc vs 110vdc

Is it safe to assume that if actual voltage output ever dropped to 107vdc or lower that my WBGO OEM EMS will protect my appliances in RV?

[creativepart]

Originally Posted by dkoldman

lower that my WBGO OEM EMS will protect my appliances in RV?

Not if those appliances are not routed through the EMS when on inverter power. It depends on how you wire up the inverter to your system. Will the inverter output be going through a sub-panel that is included in the EMS?

Obviously, the EMS can't handle power and circuits that are not powered through it.

Reading the info on this $200 2000w inverter I don't see any mention of AC Pass through or built in transfer switch. Pretty sure your Magnum had that feature built in. Won't you have to be prepared to disconnect this inverter any time you are plugged in or on generator power?

It appears that you are supposed to use this more or less direct connected to specific loads via the power receptacles on the end - not direct wire it to your inverter sub-panel.

[dkoldman]

Originally Posted by creativepart

Not if those appliances are not routed through the EMS when on inverter power. It depends on how you wire up the inverter to your system. Will the inverter output be going through a sub-panel that is included in the EMS?

Obviously, the EMS can't handle power and circuits that are not powered through it.

My OEM's inverter circuit has not changed from WBGO / Magnum Dynamics setup. It all flows through a Magnum Dynamics Pass Through that feeds the electrical panel. I intend to simply plug the same pass through plug into the new inverter.

To be honest, I never focused on this before because the CSW1012 Inverter did not show the output voltage. It kind of cryptic displayed input voltage / kW consumption but only if outside looking at the unit in basement.

Now that I think about it. I know the answer to my own question

When I first realized the CSW1012 was damaged and not repairable, I pulled out a very old Cobra 1500 Inverter I had in the garage. I hooked it up on interim basis and it seemed fine until I was purposely trying to load it up with a heated Tea Maker. It did some weird things as the Tea Maker would cut itself off. I later learned that the output of that Cobra 1500 was around 92vdc. I pulled it out as it is junk now.

[bigb]

An EMS won't cut power at 107V, it follows the NEMA standard and will cut power around 104V. There are several standards for voltage regulation in the US, Service, Utilization and NEMA, but they are designed to all work together.

Motor equipment like your AC unit use the NEMA standard which is 115V plus or minus 10%. The Service standard is 120V plus or minus 5%, this is what the utility strives to deliver, and the utilization voltage is 120V minus 13% or plus 6% which is the voltage range that utilization equipment is designed to give acceptable performance within.

These different standards were put into place to allow for voltage drops which are perfectly normal on every electrical circuit, it's just part of the way electricity works. The different standards all fit together nicely and provide a reasonable voltage in most circumstances. (Notice how the NEMA standard fits nicely within the utilization standard).

See chart below, and follow this link for a very informative document compliments of PG&E.

https://www.pge.com/assets/pge/docs/..._Tolerance.pdf

[dkoldman]

Originally Posted by Ray,IN

Perhaps that manual and dataplate are mimicking the U.S.A. Many of use say 110 or 115, when actually it's 120VAC; and all are within the acceptable voltage limits.



Translate Chinese into US English: https://www.deepl.com/en/translator/l/en/zh
When using a smart phone download: https://play.google.com/store/apps/d...slate&hl=en_AU

Well, I didn't pay for any translation service, but I have been working on my Chinese. The keywords anyway.

写入：Write in
单次写: Write once
额定输出电压：Rated output voltage
实际输出电压：Real output voltage
运行参数观测：Observation of operating parameters
写板：Writing board
连接设备：Connect to the device
断开连接: Disconnect the connection
退出： Exit
刷新： Renew
校正参数: Correction parameters
保存已校正参数：Save calibrated parameters
继续：Continue

Yesterday, their Engineering finally agreed with me that their software had bugs and would not permit a Write function. Had nothing to do with my virus software which had been turned off.

Anyway they sent me a new program and it worked to perfection albeit still in Chinese. For me some of the mouse clicks were in natural positions that those that use computers alot would know.

So I am now at 120vac

In the end game, I may have been okay with 110vac, but knowing 120vac was best, and add that I am dealing with a company that seems to care, it has been an interesting journey.