house / coach batteries getting used even on shore?

[wackodacko]

Hello all
we have a 2004 Itasca Horizon which we bought used, and it had 3 interstate batteries. We werent sure how old they were, but it wouldnt last through the night boon docking during the winter time. The furnace would cut out about 6 hours into the night due to low voltage.

Yesterday, se just replaced 3 interstate batteries because we felt that they werent holding charge for enough hours. We got them tested at autozone, they said it didnt have any dead cells, it just was low on charge. So we thought it had issues with holding a charge and bought 3 brand new group 29 autozone marine batteries. Its supposed to have around 220 amp hours per battery. We were thinking going the 6v way, but it looked too complicated to get new wires, connect it, and its so cold outside we'd rather just do a straight swap.

Anyway, we thought our issues were solved but it looks like the new batteries are the same as the old ones!

1. Before sleeping, it says 13.2V, bulk charging. WHen we wakeup, it says FLoat charge at 12V only. its 19 degrees outside in Denver, CO

2. We're connected to shore power, 50 amps. This morning, I turned on coffee maker and the inverter breaker popped. We had several space heaters connected to other outlets, but its strange that the specific breaker of the outlet I plugged it in didnt pop, it was the inverter breaker that popped. I reset it, and then unplugged some space heaters and was able to run the coffee maker.

We havent tried boondocking with the new batteries but based on numbers the panel is showing us, it looks like it gets discharged or used up even when we're plugged into shore power. Does battery power get used up even if we're plugged to 50amp on shore?

We're using the original Dimensione that came with it...

Also, we just ordered a trombetta with silver contacts because as many have found out, the solenoid died and the alternator wasnt charging the house batteries. no wonder the previous owner had so much hours on the generator (3000!) He would run the generator while driving because he didnt want the house batteries to die.

Thanks

[Stevegd007]

"Does battery power get used up even if we're plugged to 50amp on shore?"

Depends...is your Aux. power switch on or off. If "off" I would say the house "Aux" battery power is not being use nor are the batteries being charged by the converter. 12v solar roof panel, if equipped, might be charging the house batteries some on Sunny days.

On 50 Amp shore power, with space heaters and running a coffee maker, you should not be blowing out a fuse. Should have plenty of power for everything. Then when driving the engine alternator should be putting a charge back into the house batteries but the Aux battery switch needs to be in the 'on' position to do this.

Thinking you have something going on here, 3 fully charged house batteries should make it through the night running your heaters.

[wackodacko]

Hi Steve,
The aux power was ON (because I was charging the batteries).
If i switch it OFF to disconnect the AUX battery power, how long should the batteries hold charge for?

[srydve]

Is it possible that some outlets are always fed by the inverter and others are fed by shore power? Heaters can be a pretty big power draw, you should do some calculations based on the heaters, the inverter, and battery size to see if it is reasonable for them to run all night off the inverter.

[wackodacko]

also, if i hit the aux OFF switch, my 12v stuff wont work - like lights and furnace

[wackodacko]

Hi Dave,
we dont run electric space heaters when were not hooked up to shore power. I downloaded the electrical wiring diagrams but cant make sense out of it, it looks complicated. but I agree - i think some outlets run off battery/inverter whether or not connected to shore power. I dont know if this is normal. My kitchen 110V plug should not be popping the inverter circuit breaker .

[FIRE UP]

Originally Posted by wackodacko

Hello all
we have a 2004 Itasca Horizon which we bought used, and it had 3 interstate batteries. We werent sure how old they were, but it wouldnt last through the night boon docking during the winter time. The furnace would cut out about 6 hours into the night due to low voltage.

Yesterday, se just replaced 3 interstate batteries because we felt that they werent holding charge for enough hours. We got them tested at autozone, they said it didnt have any dead cells, it just was low on charge. So we thought it had issues with holding a charge and bought 3 brand new group 29 autozone marine batteries. Its supposed to have around 220 amp hours per battery. We were thinking going the 6v way, but it looked too complicated to get new wires, connect it, and its so cold outside we'd rather just do a straight swap.

Anyway, we thought our issues were solved but it looks like the new batteries are the same as the old ones!

1. Before sleeping, it says 13.2V, bulk charging. WHen we wakeup, it says FLoat charge at 12V only. its 19 degrees outside in Denver, CO

2. We're connected to shore power, 50 amps. This morning, I turned on coffee maker and the inverter breaker popped. We had several space heaters connected to other outlets, but its strange that the specific breaker of the outlet I plugged it in didnt pop, it was the inverter breaker that popped. I reset it, and then unplugged some space heaters and was able to run the coffee maker.

We havent tried boondocking with the new batteries but based on numbers the panel is showing us, it looks like it gets discharged or used up even when we're plugged into shore power. Does battery power get used up even if we're plugged to 50amp on shore?

We're using the original Dimensione that came with it...

Also, we just ordered a trombetta with silver contacts because as many have found out, the solenoid died and the alternator wasnt charging the house batteries. no wonder the previous owner had so much hours on the generator (3000!) He would run the generator while driving because he didnt want the house batteries to die.

Thanks

Wacodacko,
We have the exact same coach as you. Ours is an '04 Itasca Horizon, 36GD, with the 330 CAT. It's too bad you did not see my post on the battery situation in ours. We too had Interstate 12V house batts for power. Long story short, they were only one year old to the day, when we purchased the coach. Two of them developed bad cells within a month of us purchasing the coach and within a month of each other. So, the Interstates went into the round file.

I installed four Costco Golf cart batteries beause they fit perfectly and the wiring, it was a piece of cake. You could do it in a heart beat. Take a look at the pics I'm sending and see what you think. I know you've already done it but, if I were you, I'd take those back to Autozone and get your money back and head to Costco. I'll coach you through the change and your results will be well worth it.

As for your situation, yes, it's possible you've got something amiss here. From what I hear, the Dimension 2000 watt inverter has not the best rep in the RV world. Some have had good luck but others, well, that unit went out the window and in went Xantrex or other Inverters. As for your question on the house batts still being used while being plugged into shore power. I'm not the most educated one on the planet in this field but, to my understanding, the inverter will operate all 12V applicances and charge the batteries (house) when plugged in.

The house batteries will do all the work operating all of your 12V applicances, including the furnace when not. But, in my experience, they both are not working together, I most certainly could be wrong here. We've done a bit of dry camping and all seemed to work well. I sure love those new GC batteries though. I'd do it again in a heart beat.
Scott

[Stevegd007]

Originally Posted by wackodacko

Hi Steve,
The aux power was ON (because I was charging the batteries).
If i switch it OFF to disconnect the AUX battery power, how long should the batteries hold charge for?

Well I am not really an expert on all things, like how long a battery would hold a charge. LoL! I really have no idea...it would depend on the health of the battery and 'IF' any other 'things' are drawing power off the battery...like the refer or hidden things like small lights, CO2 alarm and etc. Sorry kinda run out of ideas here.

[wackodacko]

Hi Scott, yes I saw your post and even printed out the battery pictures so my husband could figure it out. we went to 3 different costcos in the area - none had golf cart batteries. then we saw a golf cart store, but he was charging $170/each for trojans. so we decided it would be easier to just buy 12v replacements, since autozone claims their batts have 220 amp hours a piece. However, i just called autozone to see if I could return it, they said no - they can do replacements , but not return for refund.

Ive read other threads where people complain of the Dimensione 2000 OVERCharging the batteries and frying them, but in my case, the batteries are still fine - no dead cells, its just not being charged to hold a charge (or enough). ORRRRR... something in our system is leeching off the battery power big time , enough to drain all 3 batteries to below 11.8V just overnight. HRMMPPH!!

[mickey53usa]

Learning about your RV electrical system seems always to be a "work-in-progress" for every RV owner.
I suggest this web site RV Electrical Systems to give you some basics, maybe you have already gone and done some research.

On my motor home (I use mine as I am familiar with it) - even connected to shore power there is a 12v drain, however, the converter/charger (different from an inverter/charger) should compensate and carry all the 12v load plus charge your batteries. I would first find the Converter/charger and check the output of it to make sure it is operating properly. Most have fuses on them that could "pop" and need to be replaced. I am sure that your research has shown you that the inverter takes the DC battery voltage and makes it AC voltage (in simple terms). If you are connected to shore power, then your inverter will default to shore power and not take voltage from your batteries. The converter takes the AC power and makes it DC voltage to run all the 12v lights, charge the batteries and the like. Three Group 29 batteries should not go flat over night running the furnace. I have two Group 31 batteries (with similar specifications as the Interstate Group 29) and they stay up through the night (not connected to shore power (boondocking)) without problem.
So, I would start with the Converter/Charger.

I am not familiar with the Auxillary switch you mention as I have just a House (coach) battery disconnect and a Chassis battery disconnect.

Good Luck - this is a great forum to get advice or answers like mine

Michael

[bachler]

From what I have been told. It's a no no to be pluged in to shore power and have the Inverter on;; As you have two things working against each other...

[AFChap]

If "aux" battery switch is house battery shut-off, it should not be turned off except when the coach is in storage. No 12v items (lights, thermostat, refer control board, etc) will work with the switch in the off position.

Inverter should be on ONLY when you are off share power and need 120v power to run TV, etc. Even when not being used, it burns power in stand-by mode. (If you are on shore power and turn the inverter on, it will not be "on", but will be on stand by in event of a power failure.).

Space heaters are too heavy a load to use on inverter for any reasonable period of time (I would never use more tan one even when on shore power!), and if it is that cold you need to be using the LP furnace(s) anyway to provide heat to the basement compartments to keep water tanks, etc from freezing.

[frankdamp]

It's easy to overlaod an RV electrical system if you use space heatere(s) frequently. They are typically 1500 watts (1.5 KW) when the elements are on. At 115V, that's 13 Amps. Pulling that off your batteries at 12 V would be 156 Amps, just for one heater (and not allowing for any losses in the inverter and wiring).

Just add up the rated power loads (KW) of all the 115V stuff you had on and divide the toal by 1.15. Without allowing for inductive loads (probaly not much), the resulting number will be how many amps you're drawing at 115V if all the heaters happend to switch their elements on at the same time. Fans will add a spike when they first start.

Compare that the what current the inverter can put out at 115 ac, to see if you're overloading it. Then mutiply it by 12, and that's approximately how many amps you're trying to pull out of the batteries.

Then divide the total ampere-hours the batteries can provide by the amps you're trying to pull off the 12V system and you'll have the number of hours they will last before being fully discharged.

FYI, when I needed new house batteries when we first bought our rig, I got Costco's 12V deep cycle marine batteries. Originally the rig just had one battery but the tray was big enough for two. I think the price was about $70 apiece. A couple of extra heavy-gauge battery cables from NAPA to hook them in series and Robert is your Mother's brother.

We don't dry camp, so the house batteries haven't had many long draw-downs at high current levels, but a couple of friends who have boats use the Costco batteries and are happy with them.

[wa8yxm]

Group 29 batteries have only about 100 amp hours per battery, 50 usable.

GC-2 (Six volt, you need 2 in series) or 8-D (12 volt) are 220 amp hours. Just so you know. This is at the 20 hour rate, if you run them at the 1 amp rate, all the above have more hours.

If the problem is low charge, what converter do you have.. There are some very common ones that take a week to properly re-charge batteries such as you have and then... they keep on charging damaging the batteries. A converter upgrade may be in your future.

[Sammie]

Originally Posted by wackodacko

Hi Scott, yes I saw your post and even printed out the battery pictures so my husband could figure it out. we went to 3 different costcos in the area - none had golf cart batteries. then we saw a golf cart store, but he was charging $170/each for trojans. so we decided it would be easier to just buy 12v replacements, since autozone claims their batts have 220 amp hours a piece. However, i just called autozone to see if I could return it, they said no - they can do replacements , but not return for refund.

Ive read other threads where people complain of the Dimensione 2000 OVERCharging the batteries and frying them, but in my case, the batteries are still fine - no dead cells, its just not being charged to hold a charge (or enough). ORRRRR... something in our system is leeching off the battery power big time , enough to drain all 3 batteries to below 11.8V just overnight. HRMMPPH!!

It's been my experience that when boondocking and leaving your inverter on, you Must manually switch your refrigerator over to run on propane. If you don't the refrigerator will continue to run on 110 AC and you batteries will drain in a short time. You really should shut off the inverter at night when going to bed as there is no reason to leave it on.

Sammie

[mr300ce]

After reading threads here and on several other forums evryday for over a year, (preperation for fulltiming), I have determined that RVs with a factory installed inverter come with a ATS (auto transfer switch). This turns off the inverter when shore power is plugged in.

If there is no MAJOR 12v draw sucking down the batteries, then likely the charging portion of the system has failed, either fully or partially.

[jimbo16720]

They say the furnace fan draws alot of juice and will kill batteries overnite. Never run mine so I don't know for sure.

[wackodacko]

the new batteries seem to be holding up much better than the old ones... but it will only last 9 hours if it is 5 degrees outside, and i set furnaces to: 68 degrees inside (bedroom) and 55 inside (the livingroom)
i guess this is normal..

[Dave78Chief]

From what I see in the wiring diagrams for your 2004 Horizon 40AD (Table of Contents) I do not see a converter. I do see the 2000 watt Dimensions inverter/charger (Operators manual: http://dimensions.sensata.com/Manuals/121986.pdf Technical support information: Technical Support Documents - RV).
As stated in the Inverter/Charger documentation
Bulk Stage: Max current untill 14.6 VDC is reached
Acceptance stage: Hold at 14.6VDC ramping current down until either the time value or minimum current is achieved
Float stage: 13.2 VDC, minimum current.

Just wanted to list this as you said 14.6 was Bulk stage when that is Acceptance stage.

Because the Inverter/Charger is connected directly to the coach batteries (http://www.winnebagoind.com/diagram/...ire_145020.pdf; pdf page 2) via a 300 amp fuse, the AUX Battery switch must be ON in order for the coach to see the Charger voltage.

If the Input breaker on the Inverter itself was the one that tripped, then you hit the 30 amp Automatic Power Sharing limit described on pdf page 2 of http://dimensions.sensata.com/Applic...otes/AN208.pdf. Thats a bad design for your rig because with so much of your rig driven through the inverter that means your limited to 30 amp service for a lot of your coach. Please understand, because of the design of your electrical system, that as you increase the number of space heaters on your circuits (they are routed throough the inverter) you take away from the amount of DC charging power (amperage) available for battery charging (Automatic Power Sharing limit). With 65,000 btu of furnace capability I am suprised you need the space heaters.

Documentation indicates you have a front and a rear Furnace. If both furnaces are running thats around 15 amps of current (front 40,000btu @ 9 amps; rear 25,000btu @ 6 amps). Over 8 hours thats around 72 AH of usage (15 Amps x 8hrs x .6 [cycle time]). Cycle time varies with outside temp and coach insulation efficiency. If your furnaces are running longer then increase cycle time (% of time on during each hour) to 0.8 or so. Your Group 29 batteries have around 345 AH (3 x 115AH) with only 175AH max usage (50% level). You indicated your batteries are being drawn way down (11.8VDC) down overnnight when boondocking. Thats bad bad Juju. Thats the surest way to shorten battery life to less than a year. Given that even with both furnaces running they only pull about 72AH of the 345AH available either your batteries are not getting charged up completely or you have some very large additional draws on the system. Your coach is setup so that many of the circuits are routed via the inverter and inverter panel (http://www.winnebagoind.com/diagram/...ire_145021.pdf). TV's, Sound systems, DVD players, microwaves, clocks, etc. all draw parasitic power when not in use. Turn the inverter off when boondocking overnight to reduce power consumption. Run fridge on LP when boondocking. Turn automatic steps OFF at breaker as they are a continious draw on the CHASSIS battery.

The inverter/charger supplies the 12VDC coach loads when on shore power IF the Aux battery switch is ON. Actually, the way yours is wired, the AUX battery switch has to be ON for both battery or Inverter/charger use. The Inverter/Charger does 2 things when on shore power. It supplies the coach loads and rechrges the coach battery bank. The battery bank is not supplying the load when connected to shore power. Drawings indicate you have a solar charger also. Do not get fooled into thinking the Inverter/Charger is working during dayligh hours when it is the solar providding the charge. You need to either turn off the solar or cover up the rooftop panel then read the voltage values to see if the Inverter/Charger is working. The volt meter just sees a voltage. Whether that comes from a battery, solar charger, or Inverter/charger it does not care.

Sorry for the long post but there are many possibilites and you have to know what you have and make sure your just looking at what you want to look in order to analize all this. Also, add your coach information to your signature. I had to dig up your data from your previous posts. Lots of coaches out there and the exact coach information is needed to answer many questions.

Dave

[wackodacko]

Thanks Dave for the very informative post. I've started to turn off the inverter when I sleep, it works well. however, there is usually only about 50 amps of draw which is my laptop charger, so i dont think that helps much. My Norcold Fridge is on AUTO, which im presuming means when there is no shore power, it goes to LP. are you sure i have to manually switch it to LP? If not..then it uses 12v power? that is a pain, because i'll forget to switch it back on when we're running the engine or docked somewhere...

thanks to your explanation, I now I know why, even when im on shore power - the inverter circuit breaker trips when i run the microwave and several space heaters at the same time!