Is a DC to DC Charger Really Needed?

[Morich]

Looks like a plan!
Finding a predrilled hole was a bonus!
About time you got a freebie!

[dkoldman]

I came home to find out the Renogy 40amp DC to DC has sold. That gives me clear path to find the newest Victron Energy Orion XS 50amp DC to DC.

$270 New Progressive Dynamics Converter Charger w/Remote
-$100 Sold Old Progressive Dynamics Converter charger
$ 45 4AWG wiring, switches, lugs
$115 New Renogy 40amp DC to DC
-$115 Sold New Renogy 40amp DC to DC

So now my net out of pocket for Lithium Conversion readiness is $215.

If I assume the Victron Orion XS 50amp will cost $370 (I know it is overkill, but it is badass) My total Lithium Conversion readiness will be $585. of course that does not include Lithium batteries. But in my case the cost of new Lithium batteries may not be a true line item as soon it will time to replace the vMax AGM Tanks anyway. I plan to buy Lithiums for cheaper than the vMax Tanks

[creativepart]

This is a long thread and I’ve been following along but I can’t recall what batteries you plan to buy. My memory was when you mentioned this i was worried that those were the cheapest LFP batteries I had heard of.

I know prices have fallen to new lows, but I’d encourage you to not try to use the least expensive LFP batteries you can find. I doubt you need to buy the most expensive batteries either. I think plenty of folks have had good luck with some of Will Prowse’s favorite picks, like LiTime and other lower cost brands he’s tested.

You’ve been focusing on all the other parts and getting your system planned just right, but the batteries are the number one piece of equipment to get right.

[dkoldman]

Originally Posted by creativepart

This is a long thread and I’ve been following along but I can’t recall what batteries you plan to buy. My memory was when you mentioned this i was worried that those were the cheapest LFP batteries I had heard of.

You are very perceptive sir, I am not sure I even disclosed what I saw? Context. I was not shopping for batteries, and a Lithium conversion was the last thing on my mind a month ago. I looked at Lithium conversions 4 years ago and it was always $4k to $5k; so it was non starter for me.

However a fellow RV'er told me about these batteries on Amazon, they were on sale for $150 each at the time. [/B]

https://www.amazon.com/PUPVWMHB-Blue...CNVBL5T4&psc=1

I am an opportunist buyer, I want the best of everything, but only willing to pay the least for the best, or for good enough to be close to the best

I paid $500 for VMax Tanks AGMs and I suspect 4 years is going to be it. So the thought of getting two Lithiums for under $400 started me on this crusade.

Originally Posted by creativepart

I know prices have fallen to new lows, but I’d encourage you to not try to use the least expensive LFP batteries you can find. I doubt you need to buy the most expensive batteries either. I think plenty of folks have had good luck with some of Will Prowse’s favorite picks, like LiTime and other lower cost brands he’s tested.

You’ve been focusing on all the other parts and getting your system planned just right, but the batteries are the number one piece of equipment to get right.

You speak and I will listen. I always like learning something new and grateful for those that take the time. But I do like to know why, so sometimes I ask questions. I don't want fish just handed to me, I like to know how to fish too.

I am banking that the Lithium batteries pricing will continue to drop. Since my AGMs are okay, I am trying to build bridges so if a great deal on really good batteries as your are alluding too is on sale, I can buy right away because my coach will already be Lithium ready. I want a minimum of 200ah, but would not rule out getting 300ah or 400ah if they can fit into space I have now.

I am really glad you told me about Victron Energy Orion, but I was late to learn about the new Orion XS. Funny because I had chosen the Renogy 40amp over the Orion TR 30amp, but the Orion XS just checks all of the boxes. In fact; I was able to order my Orion XS today. It took me a while to find a Dealer to work with me on price. It may be a few weeks before I get, but I will have bought from a legitimate Victron Energy Dealer so warranty and support is covered.

My plan is to configure the Orion XS for AGM, but I will still disable the Trombetta and let the Orion manage the Alternator for 50amps peak. I am already seeing positives from investing in the new Converter. Even if I never buy Lithiums, the new converter charges my AGMs in Absorption mode better.

I would really like to know Lithium battery recommendations so I have time to review and shop around. My next step on this journey is to decide where the Orion XS 50 amp should be installed?

Option 1. Next to Chassis Battery Breaker Panel on Driver side in lower compartment bay. I can tap to Trombetta Solenoid to get Chassis positive, and House Positive. There is also Fuse Block nearby for House positive. I will have to drill a hole somewhere in the frame to get a ground. I will also have to drill a hole in panel cabinet to run the 4 AWG wire I have bout to install the Orion XS outside of the panel.

Option 2. In compartment where OEM Inverter was mounted. It is now a curved wall that was damaged by recent blowout of inside dually tire. I am not sure I wish to put the Orion on that same wall in the event of another blowout. I can tap of the positive and negative cables wired to the area for the inverter, but I would need a 15' run to the Chassis positive.

Option 3. In battery compartment. I believe there will be room and the Orion XS is water and dust proof. It may take up space I may need if I later wish to get a larger footprint for batteries? This may not be a good options do sulfating, there is an adjoining little used storage area under dinette bench next to the door. It would require drilling a hole in the floor, but it may hold lithium batteries & Orion XS.

[dkoldman]

Well this was kind of strange. I had been monitoring one battery that stood out checking al of my boxes for price, features and quality. It seems as if someone from Amazon was monitoring my account / cart.

Well a little while I go, I had a 15 minute limited time offer to buy that battery for $430 It had been listed at $559

[REMOVED NON-WORKING LINK]

I had never seen a Limited Time offer with a countdown from Amazon before? So I went ahead and bought as it did have a primary concern addressed with Automatic low temp cutoff.

So I will soon have....

- 300ah available capacity ( about 3 times my vMax tanks when they were new may be 4 times more now with older vMax tanks.
- 250amp BMS
- 75amp recommended charging ( I will have 50amp charging from my Victron Orion XS
- 250amp max discharge although I will never need anywhere near that in my RV, but I should be able to run absorption fridge and microwave off inverter at the same time with no issues
- L 15.2" x W 7.6" x H 9.8" maybe 2 inches longer than one Group 31
- SOC Indicator ( I will have Bluetooth SOC from Victron App but it is nice touch anyway.
- 56 lbs so I will gain about 100lb for my heavy toad
- 24 hour Support

I was not expecting to buy a battery today, but the deal just seemed to good, I read every review on Amazon and 3 was lowest rating. So it looks like I will retire my vMax tanks sooner than planned. I may keep them and put on a workbench in a shed to use with an inverter for backup emergency power, or maybe I find someone willing to buy them to make my deal on the E-LekTech even better.

[creativepart]

Your link didn't work. I assume it was for your temporary "deal."

Here's a working link for the battery it sounds like you purchased: the E-LekTech 300 ah 12v battery

https://www.amazon.com/LekTech-LiFeP...0CM69TK9Z?th=1

[dkoldman]

Originally Posted by creativepart

Your link didn't work. I assume it was for your temporary "deal."

Here's a working link for the battery it sounds like you purchased: the E-LekTech 300 ah 12v battery

https://www.amazon.com/LekTech-LiFeP...0CM69TK9Z?th=1

Yes sir you are correct. That is the one I bought. I don't normally fall for a high pressured sale, but then again when you have done your homework; what may be knee jerk for some, I see it clearly when an opportunity knocks.

It looks like it is now selling for $549 and regular price has gone up $10 to $579. I got for $430. Buying the Lithium now while not my plan may not be bad because now maybe I do coordinate to install the Orion XS and the 300ah Lithium at the same time. I will have plenty of room now in the battery compartment. I am still not sure where the Orion XS will go, but I am thinking of three options right now all very close to the batteries.

1. Inside Battery compartment
2. In 1st compartment on the wall to the left side steps when entering RV
3. Inside RV in space area under the dinette bench that is closest to the steps. not sure I like having to take the bench apart to get access to it though.

I am trying to eliminate putting on trombetta because #1, I would like to connect direct to battery if possible for shorter run and #2, I rather not have to risk anything getting shorted out working inside that Chassis panel.

When I get a chance, I need to subtotal my financials. My guess is the total conversion may be around $1,000 doing it myself whereas 4 years ago, it was $around 4,000 based on quotes received and that was with maybe one 100AH battery with few if any of the BMS and features.

[Morich]

Shopping is a trick and part of it has to be watching for the tricks that they may play!

I have a small trim nailer that has failed from lack of use. There is one small plastic part which has dried out and split after I shot about 10-12 nails.
So I went shopping for the part and found it for $37 and change at an online retailer that I've used often. It looked like the best I could do when looking around the web.

But I have also learned that it pays to shop lots of places, so wound up looking at the same Porter Cable part number on E-bay.

Bingo! Found it for $7 and change with free shipping to arrive this week from Kentucky!

Quite a lot higher when coming from authorized dealer in San Antonio but he was not sure when he could get it, so a bit of looking may work out quite nicely!
It's only a bit of plastic less than an inch square but seems to be a nice profit for some folks! Dealer shipping was $12 which seems high for a padded envelope!


I failed to mention the estimates for repair as that was a nogo idea! Parts were going to be $55 on the low end or $110 if there were other things worn. No labor estimate until they got it apart to look at things! Somewhere around $80-100 for the normal rebuild!
A new nailer of this type is only $150!

[dkoldman]

"Shop Victoriously"

For me it is part if the fun, almost like a hobby. Just buying stuff because you can afford it is no challenge.

The replacement 12vdc dome light that had a broken lens from the tire blow out tire was going to cost us $30 when all we needed was the lens. With patience I found the exact same light fixture for $6.99, waited to order with other items and got free shipping.

[dkoldman]

So last night I get notice from E-LekTech that the battery is a preorder and it will not ship until later this month. They stated I could cancel the order if I wanted to.

I decide that wait was not an issue because I am not in a hurry, but thought I would look some more at other options.

I ran across this battery from NewtiPower they had a special for $415 plus it included a charger.
https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0...B0FJT2TWA&th=1

So I contact them to verify the low temp cutoff, and that their 200ah & 300ah actually were the exact same size? I got the below.

Our battery has a low-temperature charging protection function. When the temperature reaches -15 degrees Celsius, the charging protection will turn on (stop charging), and when the temperature returns to -8 degrees Celsius, the charging function can be restored to normal.
The size of 12V 200Ah and 12V 300Ah are the same. Currently, 200Ah batteries are in stock, while 300Ah batteries are currently in pre-sale and are expected to be shipped in mid August.
Looking forward to seeing your order!

So I go to order but the $415 price was gone and it was $447 So I decided to stick with the E-LekTech because I believe they are made by same Mfg anyway. Then just before heading out to lunch, I checked again, and the battery had dropped to $387 So I bought it. I am now trying to get the E-LekTech cancelled per their request to me to cancel at my option.

[dkoldman]

I received my Victron Energy Orion XS 50amp today.

I got all the parts so I was just playing around with the wiring and the connectors. I bought 4 awg wiring because I wanted what Victron says is the max and in the event I needed a longer wire run, I would be ready.

But the 4 awg wire does not fit into the hole on the Orion XS that once inside would be held down with a set screw.

I prefer to not go with 6awg wiring but it would fix my problem. Is there a trick to making the 4awg fit into that round terminal? Or am I forced to go buy 4awg ferrules and a special crimping tools. Tired of buying special tool to use one time

Why would Victron Energy... battery masterminds of the world have a product where 4awg is recommended but it does not fit? I will need to do 3 of these, two positives and one negative.

[Morich]

It's one of those things that make us scratch our heads at times? Or maybe it is just a mindset that they have those tools on hand and just never consider their customers will not?

But one point is that when we get the wire to that lug and go inside the box, the path gets radically smaller in most cases. So if you make that number 4 down to a number 6, etc. to fit, you are not reducing the current flow in any meaningful way!
At this side of the lug or the other side?

One hammer head way to do that is done on stranded wire fairly often by cutting off a few strands of the wire. Not gonna work on solid!
But if dedicated, one can file or grind the end of the 4 to act like a 6!
What tools are on hand for that? I like my angle grinding. A dremel type tool seems good but a file can get it done if it's not a hot day! HAH!
I figure if I can't plug it in , the tool must be broken!

If you look at how it fits or won't in the lug, you may see it is only one direcdtion that is too small? Maybe the lug opens enough top to bottom but not left/right?
So you may only need to file off left right and not worry at all about keeping it round!

[dkoldman]

Originally Posted by Morich

It's one of those things that make us scratch our heads at times? Or maybe it is just a mindset that they have those tools on hand and just never consider their customers will not?

But one point is that when we get the wire to that lug and go inside the box, the path gets radically smaller in most cases. So if you make that number 4 down to a number 6, etc. to fit, you are not reducing the current flow in any meaningful way!
At this side of the lug or the other side?

One hammer head way to do that is done on stranded wire fairly often by cutting off a few strands of the wire. Not gonna work on solid!
But if dedicated, one can file or grind the end of the 4 to act like a 6!
What tools are on hand for that? I like my angle grinding. A dremel type tool seems good but a file can get it done if it's not a hot day! HAH!
I figure if I can't plug it in , the tool must be broken!

If you look at how it fits or won't in the lug, you may see it is only one direcdtion that is too small? Maybe the lug opens enough top to bottom but not left/right?
So you may only need to file off left right and not worry at all about keeping it round!

I finally got one to go in. I had to squeeze and squeeze and keep turning, takes way too long. Especially given that I was just testing if I could even get one end.

I did lose a few strands when cutting the sheathing off, but I was worried at first because the manual goes out their way to say not to cut lose strands. They have Electrical people, you would think they would be smart enough to know that it is is almost impossible to do. That has kind of been my beef with the Electrical profession, they will jump up and down and raise holy hell if someone like use 6awg wire when their math shows it should be 4awg. But in this case, I bought 4awg as it was max possible for Victron Orion XS, but borderline does not fit. At any rate, I bought 25' of Black & 25' of Red 4awg wire... care to guess which wire size I will use

I did order a heavy duty crimp tool off Amazon, but I will not use ferrules on the Orion XS, I twist as tight as I can and cut strands until it fits, your logic is sound to me.

I need the crimp tool anyway to make my own battery & ground connections. I will need three 4awg Lugs crimped. I decided to mount the Orion in compartment right next to the steps so the run is about 30" max. There is an OEM ground block about 18" away with two open holes so that works perfectly. The 60amp fuses I have do not require Lugs. Maybe by next weekend I have it installed.

[Morich]

I totally agree with using the right gaugew wire as far as practical but then I know that once you pull the cover off things, you are not going to find any #4 wire inside!
If takes two things to make a difference in the loss on wiring. Size and distance!
So if we cut the size but over such a short distance, it doesn't show if we keep the distance down this short!

[dkoldman]

Where there is a will... there is a way. I finally got the 4 awg wire to fit inside the Victron Energy Orion XS.

This picture just represents another milestone. I still have a ways to go. The two hot wires (red) all lead to their respective 60amp Fuse block inside battery compartment, that I will do next.

I had to order a special crimp tool today that I can use to crimp the 4awg lugs that are required to connect to the ground block, and to both batteries that connect to other side of both fuse blocks. I will try that next week.

I like knowing that I will soon have my own crimper so I now I can cut the wires to be exact custom fit once I get it all together.

[dkoldman]

So today, I get my crimper tools. I finished making the cables and wired it all up except for the House battery. I just wanted to see the Victron come on and connect to the Victron App.

Well at first try I got nothing, I was a little worried that the Orion XS did not work, but I quickly pulled out the voltmeter and saw I had a poor ground. 3.65 vdc was the best I could get. I was connected to a built in OEM ground fuse block with spare holes. I never figured out if it was the screw or washer I was using, or if the rust on the bottom of chassis fuse block was the culprit?

I verified I could get the proper voltage by grounding direct to a battery. So I knew my cable was fine. I eventually connected the ground to a metal bracket that holds the house batteries. It is now working as it should. That battery bracket connection may be better anyway because it is inside not subject to road grime / water etc.

Next step: Now that Input from Chassis is in order, I will connect the output to the old AGM batteries. I have the Orion programmed for AGM Spiral cell batteries and a Regulator Alternator. When the output is connected, maybe tomorrow or later this week, I will flip the switch to disable the Trombetta. Pull out the Victron Connect App, making sure Parking Brake is set, and start the engine. It should auto turn on the Orion XS and send up to 50 amps. I will know what the amp input and output readings are via the app. It will also show me power / consumption.

When this is all done, I will turn on all lights & TVs to get batteries down to about 12.3vdc. I will then start the engine ( not genny) and see how long it takes to charge batteries. I am guessing 2 hours or less? If that is all good, I am ready for road trip with the AGMs

[dkoldman]

I completed the successful install of my Orion XS to work with existing AGMs with no current flowing direct from Alternator, only through Victron Energy Orion XS.

Works flawlessly. It did not go above 42amp, so maybe one day when battery is really low it may hit the 50amp max setting. There are all types of graphs in the app; so if in practice if it peaks say at 45ah, I may lower the setting to be at 45ah.

Then again, I may leave it as is and wait until I drop in the new Lithium battery

[dkoldman]

After two trips with no issues on the conversion and new equipment, I installed the Lithium battery today. Took me 10 minutes. I may be able to get two to fit, but the chassis battery would have to come out to put two 300ah in. However, if 125ah was enough before, 300ah will be significantly more than I need. We popped a lot of popcorn over the weekend, but did not get to use the inverter much because the genny was runny anyway for AC.



Quick Notes:

1. My battery clamps are too short for the taller NewtiPower, so at the moment I can't drive the RV until I find some method to strap it down? The long bolts that came with RV are about 9 1/2" and I need about 11" Got to be a way but I am open for ideas

2. My EC-30 AGS immediately got lost with the Lithium as it knows the correct voltage 14.2 (Converter is on), but it show 2 of the 3 bars which suggest that it thinks it need to be charged. I think it may take the EC-30 to reprogram itself as it starts to collect new data.

3. I will not use my AGS for awhile. Just so I can learn what the system is doing, I will manually go through the trouble of pushing the start button if I need the genny. No more trips; so I can get by without the AC calls.

Pictured are the vMax Tanks.

I don't think the batteries have much left, I may take to auto shop and have them load tested