No 12V DC or battery charge from generator

[DanMcC]

I'm new to this, just got this 2003 Journey, and sorting things out. When I run the generator it doesn't supply the DC circuits and doesn't charge the house batteries. The batteries are probably about gone anyway, and I'm wondering whether tat could be the problem. Could the AC to DC converter sense the battery condition and disable the whole DC output? Or am I just missing a switch or fuse somewhere? I'd like to resolve this before getting new batteries so that I don't kill them by draining them.

TIA, Dan

[Winterbagoal]

https://winnebagoind.com/resources/m...3JourneyDL.pdf
Section 6 covers electrical systems.

The auto-transfer switch may be stuck or otherwise inoperative when you engage the generator.
If that isn't the case, check the inverter charger in the water/electrical bay often located driver's side. It has breakers and a power reset switch. Info and pictures on page 6-3 and 6-4.

[Wyatt]

Originally Posted by DanMcC

I'm new to this, just got this 2003 Journey, and sorting things out. When I run the generator it doesn't supply the DC circuits and doesn't charge the house batteries. The batteries are probably about gone anyway, and I'm wondering whether tat could be the problem. Could the AC to DC converter sense the battery condition and disable the whole DC output? Or am I just missing a switch or fuse somewhere? I'd like to resolve this before getting new batteries so that I don't kill them by draining them.

TIA, Dan

You have two systems that you need to understand their respective jobs.

Your CONVERTER/CHARGER, not to be confused with the INVERTER, (which inverts 12v to 120v), the converter/ charger handles the shoreline/generator power. That unit, in most newer RV’s, not only converts 120 shoreline power to 12v dc, but it also serves to charge your coach batteries.

That said, what exactly is going on? Might it be that your converter is bad?

[mikf]

what happens when you plug into shore power? that answer would help narrow down the problem.

[Winterbagoal]

Good answer.
If you don't have 50A shore power nearby, you might have to get a dogbone (or two?) to let you plug into your nearest 30A/15A power source.
See what happens then.
If it all works, it's not likely the converter/charger. Still thinking transfer switch not cutting over to generator from shore. Could be a lot of things, hard to diagnose over the net.

[Morich]

Low grade answer is what the gen and shore power do should be the same, so if everything that needs 110 AC like microwave works on both, it is not a generator problem. Step one, test for how each works and what doesn't.
Step two is to be sure that the batteries are good as it is quite common to get bad batteries when we buy used. Folks just tend to pass their troubles to the next guy!
And final thought is how often many look past the bad batteries and think they are okay by doing a voltage test.
A voltage test is the lowest grade test as it can be so confusing. Look up "surface charge" for info. So simple but totally confusing!
The problem is that batteries can be charged, we take the charger off and see good voltage but if we wait a couple hours the voltage is bad once things settle.
So to verify batteries only using voltage, charge them for 8-12 hours, take the charger off and wait at least 2 hours and THEN test and if not at least 12.5, consider needing new batteries as they are not holding the charge.

[DanMcC]

Wow! Thanks guys! First post and amazed by the response. The coach is in a storage yard a bit distant right now, and no access to shore power there. I'll get out there in a couple days and look at what you've suggested. If no resolution, I'll look for the nearest park with 30/50A, and see what that tells us.
Thanks again.

[Podivin]

In addition to what the other gents have said, have you checked the breakers on the generator? There are breakers right up front, they look more like little switches than breakers (to me) could be one or two of the depending on the generator model. Make sure that both of those are turned one. If off then the generator is actually producing power.

Does anything work when the generator is running? For instance can you turn on the air conditioner, or even just the blower for it?

It's been implied above, but never actually stated clearly. The generator does not charge the batteries, it only output 120 volt AC. It does however power the device that converts 120 volt AC to 12 volt DC to charge the batteries. That device should work the same whether plugged in to shore power or running the generator. Which is why the question of what happens when you plug in to shore power.

[Morich]

I understand the pain of having to move the RV to test, so there is another way to go on testing. If you test the batteries voltage when the generator is not running and RV not plugged in, you will get a voltage level of something like 12.6, etc. but if that level changes to higher when the generator is run, you can say the charge current is getting to the batteries and that leaves you back to figuring they may be bad if they are getting the charge but not holding it.
Something to ba aware of as it can confuse is the way starting the RV engine also connects both start and coach batteries together through a solenoid. This is meant to let you get a little benefit from the engine alternator charging not only the start battery as in the normal car but also connect to the coach and get a bit of charge back into them like when we move from one campsite to another.
For best chance to get the generator running, it is always good practice to start the RV engine and then crank the genset but don't let that running engine alternator make you think you are getting charge from the genset running? Either/both can charge if working right but for testing look only for the charge from the generator by shutting the enigne off.

[DanMcC]

A bit more info. The generator is supplying AC now. I did somehow trip the little breaker/switch on the generator at one point. Took me a while to find that. I'll look more carefully, but didn't see a second item when looking at the generator. The engine alternator charges both battery sets just fine, and is currently necessary to start the generator. The coach batteries drop voltage pretty fast/far, within a few days of sitting with everything off. Is the auto-transfer switch a separate device that I can check, or is it built into something else? I'll look in the documentation, but might as well ask.
You guys are blowing me away with your speedy and helpful responses.
THANKS! I promise to post on how this ends.

[Morich]

Auto transfer switch is a stand alone item which only acts to change from shore power to generator power. that is somewhat like you moving a plug from the shore power to an outlet on the generator and does not change what happens next, only where the power comes from before it goes to one of several types of converters which change the 110 AC to 12 VDC to go to the lights, fans and charge the batteries.
So if your generator is not charging the batteries, I see no reason to consider the transfer switch as a problem----unless there is some other reason to think you would not get shore power when plugged in!
The chain is like this:
Either the generator or shore power provides 110AC to the converter and things that require AC like the microwave and air conditioner and outlets.
The converter takes the 110 AC in and produces 12+ VDC which is fed to things like lights, fans, etc. but at the same time feeds power to batteries to charge them.
A point on batteries in Rv can be very hard to spot at times. Even though we turn everything off and even throw a "battery disconnect " switch, there are still items in the coach which draw power!!
Many safety items like propane gas or CO detectors are not turned off and will draw batteries down , usually at a slow rate but if we have weak, suspect batteries, they can go down much quicker than we expect.
On the engine/start battery, there are also things like ignition, radio memory and clocks which draw power.
General name for all these is "parasitic drain" and then can be hard to spot.
I do not look for or expect more than one breaker on the generator output but if it is tripped, you do not get power from it but if you plugged into shore power, you would. Just a choice of shore or generator but having the breaker open on either will cut that one off!
Things on the RV are not super hard to understand except there are lots of options that leave us boggled until we begin to look at each item by itself as they do have lots of ways they are tied together at times and not at other times.

[Podivin]

I'm afraid I'm going to have to disagree with Morich. The transfer switch could be bad, which is what's causing the batteries not to charge when running on generator.
However if ANY 120 volt AC device on the RV runs when on generator then the transfer switch is probably fine (it could possibly still be dropping one leg). If no 120 volt AC devices work then the transfer switch could be the problem.

To find the transfer switch follow your shore power cord. Where it goes into the RV it probably goes into a large-ish box of some sort. There will be 8 wires going in on once side - 4 from shore power and 4 from generator (this assumes a 50 amp RV), and 4 wires going out on the other side of the box which is power going to the breaker panel in the RV. If 30 amp RV then change those numbers to 6 and 3.

[DanMcC]

More good stuff. I'm feeling pretty confident we'll get this fixed. The generator is putting out 120 V DC. The HVAC and AC outlets are working when the generator is running. Now the thing is to get out to the coach with all this information and put it to use. I should get there by the weekend.

[Morich]

Originally Posted by Podivin

I'm afraid I'm going to have to disagree with Morich. The transfer switch could be bad, which is what's causing the batteries not to charge when running on generator.
However if ANY 120 volt AC device on the RV runs when on generator then the transfer switch is probably fine (it could possibly still be dropping one leg). If no 120 volt AC devices work then the transfer switch could be the problem.

To find the transfer switch follow your shore power cord. Where it goes into the RV it probably goes into a large-ish box of some sort. There will be 8 wires going in on once side - 4 from shore power and 4 from generator (this assumes a 50 amp RV), and 4 wires going out on the other side of the box which is power going to the breaker panel in the RV. If 30 amp RV then change those numbers to 6 and 3.

There seems to be some confusion on the transfer switch as I find it only has one function and that is to transfer the load to one of two sources of power, the generator or the cord. It has no direct connection to the converter, only from the transfer switch to the load center.
We don't have the info to know which 2003 Journey you have but this is a snip of the drawing for a 34 foot and they are pretty much the same except larger have more options.
But the main point is that if you are getting AC power to the load center, forget looking at the transfer switch as the power has already come past that point! If you have 110 AC on the two breakers at the load center, and the air conditioner is working right, the transfer switch is not the problem.
Click this drawing to get a better view.

[DanMcC]

Thanks again. It's a 32TD. I'll be traveling solo. That snippet provides a much clearer and more concise picture than the document I was looking at <http://www.winnebagoind.com/diagram/2003/03_p-ser_wire_142005.pdf>

[Morich]

Part of looking at these is learning to ignore lots of things we don't need to see and look at what we do need!
If you are chasing the problem from the 110AC input side and you get power at the load center 15 amp breaker I marked in green, it thing should go to the load shredder and if all is well, on to the outlet where the converter is plugged in.
So it pays to be aware that the ac needs to get to the converter outlet by coming through the load shedder and that"might" be a problem spot but rather than figure out how to test the load shedder, I would go straight on to the converter outlet if handy and see that it was actually plugged in(?) and getting ac in, so that it can make DC going out.
But at that point we need to change drawings to the 12VDC here:
http://www.winnebagoind.com/diagram/...ire_143661.pdf
On this drawing sheet one, we have to search for a converter connection!So on the second snip, we can see negative and positive come in from the converter and through a great big 300 amp fuse but direct to the battery string!
Then I marked it in orange where 12VDC battery comes out and winds up on the battery disconnect switch. If that switch is on, the power passes through and on to the fuses over at the right to feed the coach.
The aux start solenoid is the one which has a switch somewhere around the driver and we can operate this solenoid by switch to get the two strings tied together for a "jump start" if the start battery is weak/dead. But this is part of the tricky as that solenoid also operates when the engine starts and that lets the alternator putting charge into the start battery, also get some into the coach batteries! One of the funnies of the Winnebago drawings is that they often do not show anything about wiring which they consider "chassis" stuff that they get from the chassis builder, so they don't show any connection to the left side of this solenoid but it is really a great big battery cable on the left post! Just ignored on the drawings for some models of RV.
One way to look for your problem is to measure voltage at the coach batteries while no generator and not plugged in and find maybe 12 something but then when you plug in or have the generator running to charge things through the converter, if the battery voltage jumps up higher, you can say for sure that the converter is what's doing it.
If you see the voltage getting to the batteries but they don't stay charged after you shut off whatever is charging them, you can be sure the batteries are not good!
Sometimes it gets down to what is easy to find and reach to test versus going through lots of hunting and chasing to test each step?

[BobC]

1. Dan, it's great that you're responding so frequently with comments and updates. Too often the original poster (aka OP) doesn't respond and we don't know if we're getting through or not.

2. Morich knows his stuff so follow his advice.

3. You might want to create a signature block that identifies the year and model of your RV similar to Morich's and mine. You do it via the user CP. That way, anytime you post, we'll know what you have.

[imnprsd]

This is how I mapped-out my 2004 Itasca Horizon Power grid. I think it is just like yours, but I'm not sure?

Note: Most of us Winnie DP owners do NOT have a converter.

And I think most of us have a 12V-2000W Dimensions Inverter that has an internal 100A Charger inside it.

Also, your house battery positive cable goes to the battery disconnect solenoid first and then to the inverter.

And I think your engine start battery goes to the boost solenoid as shown in the diagram below; and there is another positive cable that goes to your engine starter solenoid, which I have not shown in a diagram below.

There is also a large jumper cable that connects the 2 solenoids together, so when you press your "boost switch" in the driver's area it connects your house battery to your engine battery.

===

The Main Panel receives 120V from either the generator or shore power, with ATS priority given to the generator. This is L1 and L2 power. It's important to understand that both legs are 50A; and when you only have 30A shore power what is really going on is that the 30A "dog bone" is joining the L1-50A line to both power leads... and that way both sides of your Main Power panel are effectively connected to one 50A line.

Your Intelletec EMS/PMS senses this and will then monitor and shed 120V loads as it was set-up to do in an order pre-arranges by your motorhome supplier.

Note: They call it 30A because all of your circuit breakers are 15A or 20A and your inverter breaker is 30A, but really your line-in is 50A.

With 50A or 30A Service, the the main power panel takes one leg (L2) and sends it to the inverter, which has it's own internal relay/ATS; and when it senses 120V coming it, it automatically turns the inverter "OFF".

Your 120V options are: A) Shore power; B) generator power or C) Inverter power if switched "on" from inside the RV.

The inverter passes 120VAC-POWER to the Sub-Panel as square wave or pure sine wave depending on your inverter type.

Side Note: Dimensions is a brand that was once made by Sensata (now Magnum) back in the day they they were considered the best inverters on the market for both reliability and quality of the 120V "quasi-sine" wave they produced. And while I can't give much information on the magic Sensata employed, I can tell you my Dimensions Inverter powers my residential refrigerator just fine and I have no reason to upgrade it to PSW. However, if I ever lost my Dimensions inverter I would upgrade to a PSW inverter and probably a separate charger.

Side Note #2: I will also say that if I ever lost just the charge function inside the Dimensions charger I would probably install a separate 17A Victron Charger with bluetooth APP and I will just switch the Dimensions charger off. This will still allow me to use the inverter side and charge my batteries off shore power. In fact, I did not wait for my Dimensions Charger to fail. Last summer I installed a Victron charger anyway and now this is the only charger I use to charge both my house & engine start batteries when I have shore power. The Victron also works great as a battery maintainer when I put my RV in storage so I am very happy with this upgrade.

[DanMcC]

Resolved the basic issue, and earned a sharp smack of the palm to the forehead - Doooh.
I hadn't realized that the Xantrex 458 was more than an inverter. Looks like it also converts AC to DC, and acts as a battery charger/tender. Turns out that pressing the somewhat hidden button above the label "CHARGE" did the trick. I can now try to understand how/why it was not on.

[DanMcC]

Ohhh, and thank you all so much for the prompt and knowledgeable assistance. The beauty is that I feel much more comfortable and confident knowing you're there.