Ok you electrical WIZARDS, need tech help here!

[YC1]

Since your problem is intermittent and you have relays in the circuit here is the method only a professional will use to nail the problem.


Get it to act up and then rap the relays with the back of a screwdriver. A nut driver will work but that is for amateurs.


Of course, this is after you have measure the input to the board with the awning switch engaged. As suggested the wiring may be dropping the voltage and the motor is easier to extend than retract of course due to the spring help. You already measured the voltage to be less than 12 but you didn't show how much.

[FIRE UP]

Originally Posted by ImagineIF

Yep, the voltage drop and troubleshooting using the toad battery directly connected to the awning pretty confirms what I and others suggest. You have a wiring/connectivity issue.

Disconnect the motor wires at the control box and jumper them to the battery like you did with the toad battery. If this works and the voltage drop is limited, then the problem is between the 12V fuse and the control box and/or control box and ground. If it doesn't work, then its the wiring 12V and/or ground between the control box and awning.

My last coach, a Monaco built Beaver, had this exact problem with its Carefree awning. In its case, the wiring was undersized between the 12V supply and the control box.

ImagineIF,
I will try your thoughts here, when I get it mounted back onto the coach. Thanks again for trying to help.
Scott

Originally Posted by nothermark

A couple of thoughts:

The meter reading looks like a noisy signal the digitizer is having a problem with. I would try a different meter. Better yet try one with a needle. The voltage is not so much of an issue as is a steady reading.

There will be a small voltage drop if they are sensing the current and limiting it. Probably on the order of a volt if everything is working right. There is probably a low value resistor in series with the ground return feeding an op amp or transistor gain stage that controls a pass transistor that can cut the power off if it exceeds a set limit. It sounds like that is happening. See if there is a current limit adjustment. Bumping it up a small amount may solve your problem.

Also look for any capacitor that is leaking. They look like a small can. If there is one that has brown goo on the top it could be the problem. Motors are notoriously noisy electrically so I would expect some kind of filter to smooth out the current sensing signal. That would usually be a largish capacitor.


It really does sound like a controller problem. No idea what just replacing it would cost.

I would be tempted to use a light bulb in place of the motor and see what happens. If you can measure the current and do a similar load it would help. That way you can leave it on longer. You can also add a few small bulbs to see what happens if you increase the current.

Are you really sure nothing is binding? ;-)

nothermark,
Most of what you are talking about was/is so far over my head, it's like trying to watch the space station go by during the day. I sure wish I had the electrical knowledge you and, all the responders to my problem have displayed. But, if I had it, then I'd probably not be on here asking for help. Duh!!!

As far as binging, pretty darn sure there aint any. I've lubed everything there is to lube, a few times. I've moved the entire awning, in and out, by hand, and, tried to feel all the parts and listen so see if I can feel or hear, of any binding issues. So far, none detected. Thanks again for you trying to help.

Originally Posted by YC1

Since your problem is intermittent and you have relays in the circuit here is the method only a professional will use to nail the problem.


Get it to act up and then rap the relays with the back of a screwdriver. A nut driver will work but that is for amateurs.


Of course, this is after you have measure the input to the board with the awning switch engaged. As suggested the wiring may be dropping the voltage and the motor is easier to extend than retract of course due to the spring help. You already measured the voltage to be less than 12 but you didn't show how much.

YC-1,
I thought the last video I posted showed how much voltage drop there was when I was extending and retracting, albeit a bit blurry but, visible enough to identify. I will try what you suggested.


Again to all, I'm reminded here of the old tale of Huck Finn/Tom Sawyer and the "White washing the fence thing". I'd like to be them and, sit back and watch all you extra electronically intelligent folks dive into my little Control box and analyze this while I watch and learn. Oh, and of course I'd be paying you all for it.

The awning is presently off and screwed down to the work bench for bench testing. I will remove it from there and, install it back on the coach so I can resume load testing of the entire operating system. Thanks again to all you nice folks for your assistance here. Man, you guys are cool.
Scott

[YC1]

Ok, I did better this time watching the voltage while running it. All to obvious. The voltage going out is holding but not great. The voltage during retraction is dropping seriously. That is the issue. Now is it simply one of the relays or the input voltage to the control box. You need to measure the input voltage to the control box to see if it is dropping there. If not it is the board/relays.

[YC1]

Well I may have assumed something incorrectly. The picture of the weather pro had me downloading a service manual. I assumed your door awning is being driven by one.


Can you verify that or someone that has one. I do not have the device on mine.
In any case, along page 2 or 3 it specifically says it needs 12 volts at the input to operate properly. That needs to be measured while in operation.


As for the going in and out and then stalling on the inbound situation, and then taking a couple of minutes to start again, it appears there is a thermal switch and it is probably doing its job of protection.

[dpinvidic]

One thing I noticed in this manual is that there are no limit switches to set the open/closed stop points.
This means there IS a load sensing circuit which determines when the awning is fully closed/opened. It is very likely that this circuits trip point has changed.
There "should" be an adjustment, or sometimes they cut circuit traces to change the trip point. But if you can't change it, your stuck getting a new board.

Have you tried to reverse the motor connections? This will make the control switch work opposite, AND it will use the opposite contacts in the relays.

If you don't see any difference in the symptom after reversing the wires, then it is a circuit board problem....not a relay problem.

Here is the repair manual for this controller.
unfortunately it does not have the controller schematics.
I suggest you print it for future problems.
Might give you a little more info than you have now.

http://janeandjohn.org/docs/AwningManual.pdf

Regards,

Dan

[zman-az]

As mentioned, you have a restriction in current flow. I would not rule out to small of diameter of wire. Could also be a bad terminal connection or that wire to the motor could be pinched, as it goes in/out it moves and changes the connection. All that being said I would bet the problem is dirty contacts in the relays. Some relays you can pop the tops off and see the contacts inside, if they are real dirty that is your problem (your relays looked soldered in and the tops don't come off). I would also put the voltmeter on the incoming side of your control box and watch the voltage, if it drops significantly then the problem is the wiring from the battery to your control box. You can also put your volt meter on the incoming power and on the power going to your motor. If you see any voltage the problem is your relay contacts (should see zero volts across closed relay contacts). You can also do that same test between the motor and the output of the control box.

[zman-az]

Originally Posted by FIRE UP

BTW, that wire size looks fine, however those relays sure look small.

[FIRE UP]

Well Gang,

I've reinstalled the awning and, hooked the two wires back up. Incdedentally, those wires that are hooked to the leads of the motor, seemed to be around 14GA. That should be large enough to handle the voltage to operate that little motor without too much voltage drop shouldn't they?

Now, once it was all installed, I cycled it, out and back in, 4.5 times. It worked flawless for 4 times, completely all the way out, and, all the way in. Then, on the 5th cycle, it quit about 1/2 way out. I let it sit for about 30 seconds and then tried to bring it back in, from the 1/2 out position. It came in without hesitation.

One thing I've checked is, the incoming voltage to the control box is, 13.1V

Based on the fact that, I have no idea which of those 1/2" x 1" relays are the "IN" and which one is the "OUT" and, because as you all see in the pics, the wires are nicely insulated all the way to the blue female spade connectors, I can't probe them to get voltage readings while operating the awning. I have some small, alligator clips with pins on the end that I may be able to "back probe" those and get some sort of reading.

And, as for limiting adjustments, there are none on the motor. There isn't even any manual gear box for when it throws a fit while camping, so that I can manually reel it in. I've seen many door awnings that have that auxiliary gear box and, a long handle to reel them in when they go arry electrically. But, as one or more of you have stated, there must be a possible over-work (heat protection) circuit that just stops the operation if, things are cycling too much, like I'm doing.

There are no limit adjustments either on that printed circuit board. No "dash pots" of any sort. The only adjustment of any type in or on that board, are the dip-switches. By the way, I originally said there are "TWO" of those little micro-relays. But, as you see in the close up picture of that circuit board, there are actually THREE. The third one has a white decal on it but, is the same exact relay as the other two. I myself didn't even notice it was the same until I just looked at it closer, a few minutes ago. Hmmmm.

Why do they have to make this stuff so complicated?
Scott

[emiddleb]

Scott,

If you look at the manual in the link (the same one I sent you in the PM) it shows T6 T7 T8 and T9 at that location. It also shows wires off of T6 and T9 as "WeatherPro Output to Motor" and wires off T7 and T8 as "Oasis Elite Output to Motor."

Now, to tie it all together, on my Vectra (same year as yours) I have a big WeatherPro patio awning and the front door awning is an "Oasis Elite." I know you have Carefree awnings, but you said they were an upgrade from the prior owner. So based on my same year it should be the T7 and T8 wires that drive your door awning.

[dpinvidic]

Please swap the polarity of the motor wires.
This will prove that it is not the relays.

When you run it, the circuit board heat up and trips at a lower trip point.
Let it set for awhile, then heat it with a hair dryer. My bet is it will f ail the first t I'm since the components are already.

Dan

[KIX]

We have the exact same awning as your OTD awning. We also had the exact same problem with it. In the process of troubleshooting the motor/control board the "gear box" failed. Parts were not found so I permanently closed the awning. Some time later I found the motor manufacturer in Florida. I understand they made some other components for the awning too. I have not dealt with them but they are reportedly easy to deal with. Maybe they can help with parts now of in the future. Good luck.


Fiamma Phone Number 407-672-0091

[nothermark]

Swap the motor leads and see what happens.

The circuitry is pretty basic and pretty simple for anyone who has messed with controllers. When the motor hits the end of travel the current spikes up. By monitoring the current they can shut off the motor when it exceeds a set limit. It looks like it has trouble with the shutoff current circuit.

I'd call the controller company and see if they have an easy answer. The most they can do is tell you to buzz off. ;-)

[YC1]

Is the model on the left in the picture yours?

[FIRE UP]

Originally Posted by YC1

Is the model on the left in the picture yours?

YC1,
"Detail A" shows at least partially, what we have. And that part is the motor. Now, as for the rest of it, it's probably pretty close in representation. It's kind of amazing to me that, as many as I know have glanced at this post and, as many RVs I've encountered in our travels ever since we purchased this coach, approximately 4 years ago to the day, I've not been responded to by folks that have the same exact one. Nor have I seen any of the exact same one, in the many, many campgrounds and RV parks we've been to.

All the awnings we have are supposed to be the top of the line, for the year of the coach, which like stated is an '04. They, with the exception of the "Over the door" one, have performed flawlessly and, even that one over the door, works great, MOST of the time. It just gives me crap, when it wants to or, when I cycle it more than maybe I should.

I thank you Sir for trying to assist with identifying my particular unit. Much appreciated.
Scott

[YC1]

Based on the diagrams it appears it is very similar to the kwikee steps on my mh. The motor and gear sure look close. Recently I had a bunch of intermittent issues with my controller.


There are no limit switches involved. The thing senses increased current draw when the motor reaches the end of travel. I have seen electric windows in cop cars work this way. We were installing dobie-o-matics in them. That is, temperature sensitive triggers to open the windows if the car was left unattended and the temps rose. This was the last ditch effort of the device. Before that it would turn the car on and run the AC. The officer had a remote control device that popped the door if he needed backup with teeth.


I digress a bit but your controller could be kaput. However, I would try the thing one poster suggested and reverse the wires to the motor for a test.

[FIRE UP]

Well,
Here's the latest. I removed the cover to the motor then, cycled the awning. It went out and back in, about 4-5 times. But, as expected, while traveling back in, it quit. I then jumped up and, reversed the wires. I then jumped back down and pushed on the opposite sides of the toggle for the direction I wanted.

It went in just fine. But, upon cycling it, it took about 3 cycles for it to quit. I reversed them again. Again, it went in and cycled a couple-two or three times and, quit. So, at this point, I'm fairly sure it's not the relays, but, not entirely positive.

I looked at the wiring diagram and yes, it's "T7 and T8" that run the motor for the door awning. It's "T6 and T9" that run the Weather Pro patio awning. But, that's only two wires. I'm assuming that, the roll of those two wires, as in which one is positive and which one is negative, reverses, depending on which side of the toggle is pushed, "In or Out". I tried to back probe those T7 and T8 with my Volt-ohm meter to see a "-" or "+" 13V but, that did not happen.

I have no idea on how to read the voltage in those two wires when the awning is in transit, in or out. Now, one thing I didn't check was the incoming power to the control box to see if it lowers at the time the awning quits. I'd bet it doesn't but, just to rule it out, I will check that part of the operation. Will keep all in formed.

By the way, one of you, I can't remember just who, gave me a remote control for those awnings ( patio and door ) a long time ago and, when I got it and sort of programmed it, it doesn't work as it's supposed to. The Patio portion of it doesn't work at all but, I can hear and feel one or more of the solenoids click when the patio buttons are pushed.

But, the door awning buttons work. The only problem is, they're opposite. When the OPEN is pushed, it wants to travel in. When the CLOSE is pushed, it will travel out. Hmmmmm. I even dove into the programming instructions and, re-programmed it. Still the same when done.

Now, on that Weather Pro printed circuit board, in the upper right corner is a tab that's labeled "Antenna". There is nothing attached to that tab. So, I wonder if that has any effect on the operation of the remote and or, the improper direction when buttons are pushed. Not a biggie, I don't even know if I'd use it or not, even if it was working right.
Scott

[Sammie]

Hey Scott, How's it going buddy? I sent you those remotes a couple of years ago. It's my recollection that there was a remote control devise located either in the front DS compartment or under the dash which did have a small antenna attached. Maybe that one was only for the door locks though.

Sammie

[nothermark]

FWIW You need to find somebody local to you who can reverse engineer the circuit from the board. It's either that or replace the controller. It sounds like every thing is essentially working but the current sensing is marginal. Either that or there is a noise filter as part of the circuit that is not working. I understand you do not understand these things but a competent tech who understands circuits will.

[FIRE UP]

Originally Posted by emiddleb

Scott,

If you look at the manual in the link (the same one I sent you in the PM) it shows T6 T7 T8 and T9 at that location. It also shows wires off of T6 and T9 as "WeatherPro Output to Motor" and wires off T7 and T8 as "Oasis Elite Output to Motor."

Now, to tie it all together, on my Vectra (same year as yours) I have a big WeatherPro patio awning and the front door awning is an "Oasis Elite." I know you have Carefree awnings, but you said they were an upgrade from the prior owner. So based on my same year it should be the T7 and T8 wires that drive your door awning.

emiddleb,
Well Sir,
I am learning as I go along here and, with yours and, all others help here, this snail brain is possibly making some progress. I did determine that what you said about the T positions is all correct. Now, what I did was, pulled off the T-8 (blue wire) and, supplied it with an outside source of 12V and, also applied a ground to the system from the same outside source and, it extended. But, when I pulled the T-7 off to do the same thing, in order to retract it, it just sat there. This is when I get frustrated because I'm under the impression that, it should have gone back in. Hmmmm.

Originally Posted by dpinvidic

Please swap the polarity of the motor wires.
This will prove that it is not the relays.

When you run it, the circuit board heat up and trips at a lower trip point.
Let it set for awhile, then heat it with a hair dryer. My bet is it will f ail the first t I'm since the components are already.

Dan

Dan,
Well, I did run a few cycles of the extension and retraction 'till it stopped. At that point I switched the wires. Yep it went in, and out, for about 2 cycles, then quit again. Switched them back, again, cycle, quit.

Originally Posted by Sammie

Hey Scott, How's it going buddy? I sent you those remotes a couple of years ago. It's my recollection that there was a remote control devise located either in the front DS compartment or under the dash which did have a small antenna attached. Maybe that one was only for the door locks though.

Sammie

Hey Sammie, well, other than this strange phenomena with my door awning, things are doing just fine. Yep, there is a "security" control module in that forward DS compartment, along with the MMDC, the Smart Wheel Master Control, and a few miles of wiring, circuit breakers, fuse panels, relays etc. But, that security module is strictly for the entry door and, compartment door operation.

That remote you sent me was for the awning controls. As stated, it's suppose to operate both the Weather Pro Patio Awning and the "Oasis" Over the Door Awning (if one has an "Oasis"). Mine happens to be a Carefree. I'm assuming that, there's only a couple of wires that operate any of them anyway. So, the wires that are in that control box, still operate my Carefree instead of the original Oasis.

Originally Posted by nothermark

FWIW You need to find somebody local to you who can reverse engineer the circuit from the board. It's either that or replace the controller. It sounds like every thing is essentially working but the current sensing is marginal. Either that or there is a noise filter as part of the circuit that is not working. I understand you do not understand these things but a competent tech who understands circuits will.

Nothermark,
Well Sir, you're more than quite right. I do need someone SERIOUSLY SMARTER than I am on this project. I'd love to sit next to them and watch how things are tested etc. I put a volt-ohm meter on the incoming 12V supply and, actuated the awning. In the video below, you'll see how the voltage fluctuates. My coach is consistently plugged in and, the Magnum Inverter/Charger charges the house batteries, when needed. Otherwise, it's in the dormant stage. It was not charging them at the time this test/video was taken.
Scott

[nothermark]

I have been watching the thread with a bit of frustration because between the two of us it would be a fun project. The problem is you do not understand what you see because you do not understand electronics. Most of what you are talking about makes sense to me because I have made a living at it or messed with it for a hobby for more than 50 years. ;-) For instance the meter makes sense to me because the motor line will be noisy and the meter is trying to read the noise. Digital meters have a problem that way.

I think your problem is in the current sensing that determines when the awning is at the end of travel. If there is one set of terminals set for higher current/bigger awning then you should be using them. If that does not work the current monitoring needs some tweaking.