Ok you electrical WIZARDS, need tech help here!

[FIRE UP]

Gents,
Well, this is the second time I've tried to tackle this problem. The first time I just gave up. But, it's starting to get on my nerves. So, before I call my ole' cohorts on the Bomb Squad for SDFD to borrow some C-4 and blow this thing right off the coach, I thought I'd give it one more attempt to remedy this issue.

OK, here's the problem. My door awning, a Carefree "Mirage" model, has been temperamental in the retraction operations ever since we purchased the coach, 4 years ago. It will extend, anytime I want it to. But, when it comes time to retract, that's when IT, decides if IT want's to go back in or not. If it's in one of it's moods, it just flips me the b... and tells me, "ain't going in".

Now, here's what happens, SOMETIMES. When we push the spring loaded toggle to retract, it may, sometimes, come in. Other times, it may start to retract and then, just quit. If it does that, I have determined that, if I wait for a short period, oh, say around 3-5 minutes, it will finish retracting.

Now, here's a secondary problem. I've determined that, if I extend that door awning to the point that the "elbows" actually lock open, it won't retract at all, no matter how long I wait. I have to manually pre-bend at least one of those arms at least a little bit, and, push the button at the same time, and it will then retract.

The first time I tried to analyze this problem, I broke out the Volt-ohm meter and checked the available voltage at the motor connections. Well, when the awning acts up, and, I push the retract side of the toggle, I get less than 12V at those terminals.

So, decided to try something. When that awning stopped one time and would not retract, I took off the cover to the motor and, un plugged the two wires. I then hot wired it from my toad battery (since it was close) and, that awning ZIPPED RIGHT IN!!!!!

Well, fast forward a couple of years to today. I have removed that awning and bench mounted it on my work bench. The rear end of the coach sits just a few feet away from my work area so, I made up a set of 14GA jumper wires, about 15' long and, attached them to the coach batteries with alligator clips.

Now, as you'll see in the attached video, when I touch the wires to the motor leads, that awning zips right out. And, when I reverse the wires, it ZIPS right back in again. And, the really good part, and you'll see this in the video, I can extend it to the point that it locks both elbows. It doesn't care with full 12V supplied to it, it ZIPS right back in, EVERY TIME.

Hotwiring it this way, I've cycled that awning, oh, maybe 20-30 times in a row and, it's not skipped a beat. It doesn't even think about not retracting.

OK, now for the interesting part. I'm also including a couple of pics, of the A&E Weather Pro control box, mounted in my first, lower compartment on the passengers side. As you'll see in the pics, there are two, black, what I'd call "micro-sized" relays. If, when the awing stops retracting in it's path and just sits there, but, but, I or, the wife continued push the retract side of the toggle, you can feel either one or both of those little micro-sized relays click.

Now, since they are mounted on that printed circuit board so close together, I cannot tell if they're both clicking due to the board vibrating from one of them or, they are actually both clicking. And, at present, if both of those little relays are involved in the extension and retraction operations, I don't know which does which.

Now, please don't tell me to "Lube" all the elbows or, any components of that entire awning. I've lubed them with enough lube to change the oil in my CAT. And, with my limited electrical knowledge, I'm pretty sure that the motor is NOT BAD! I mean, if it was bad, wouldn't it QUIT even with full 12V being supplied? Again, in bench testing, that awning extends and retracts ON COMMAND, WITHOUT HESITATION.

The wiring connections look to be just fine. There doesn't appear to be any forms of corrosion etc. on either of those, at the motor. And, in the past, it was suggested that, those motors tend to collect moisture in the bottom of the housing due to the way they sit, in awning structure. Again, that motor performs flawlessly while being bench tested. So, there's no water damage in that motor.

Now, the only thing I can think is the possible problem is, one or both of those micro-relays somehow, get's hot and, it needs to cool down a tad before getting at least some correct voltage to that motor. Another thing, in that coach, sitting alongside the passenger is a full bank of switches/toggles for various operations.

I've switched a couple of those toggles around to see if the actual toggle switch that extends and retracts that awning is bad. Nope, even with a different toggle, the awning still acts up. So, is my only hope to R&R that printed circuit board with those two micro-relays attached or, what? Hmmm.
Scott


P.S. Just click on the small picture of the half opened awning and you'll be lead to where you can view it in action.

[T Gibson]

+1 on the board or more specific the relays on the board. I've come across this same type of problems with relays in Honda vehicles. If you can swap the reays it could confirm that one or both are bad. Can you just replace the relays or does the board have to be replaced?

[dpinvidic]

Can you see any adjustment pots on the circuit board?
Your testing confirms the motor is good.
The relays actually perform the polarity reversing for changing direction.


There is probably a load sensing circuit which shuts down the motor if the load gets too high, like having the awning hit something.

If there is an adjustment pot, re-adjustment may fix it.

Dan

[1mainiac]

Ok it uses one relay for out and one for in they are spdt relays and are both ground at rest when you hit the out sw one goes from gnd to hot and the motor goes out when you hit in the other goes from gnd to hot and the motor comes in. If you swap the motor wires the awn will extend when you hit retract and retract when you hit extend. There is a current limiter on the board which if set too low will cause the problem you describe. If it is the current limiter the problem will not change when you swap the motor wires. It takes more current to bring it in then open it. You could just buy 2 Bosch relays and make your own control for it. Pretty easy to wire up and solves the problem.

[HuntingHawk]

Just because the relays click doesn't mean they are holding that position.

[hometool]

I am going to put my 2 cents in on this I would want to verify that you have a good ground to the unit buy temporarily riging a ground from the motor to the battery (-)terminal that powers it. you stated you measured less than 12v when motor stalls if the relay was droping out volts would go to 0

[Old Car Nut]

I'm going to bypass most of this and the replies.

I used to do 12v vehicle wiring for a living and here is what my experience tells me is going on based on two important things in your detailed post.

1) You said you get a less than 12v reading at the motor when the awning is installed using the coach wiring.

2) When you bypass that wiring and have a solid 12v+ at the motor it functions without skipping a beat.

You also mentioned that you tried changing toggle switches. A toggle in a high current circuit like that is used only to switch the relay which handles the high current needed to operate the device (ie horn relay). If it was intermittently working (not at all or just fine) one might look to the toggle.

The real switch handling the electrical load for this circuit are the relays themselves. Inside them a re coil that switches the contacts inside and the contacts themselves that complete the circuit.

Based on what you have said one of two things is happening.

1) The coil has become weak and does not solidly close the contacts and as a result some burning has occurred leaving for a poor connection and therefore a current drop so the electric motor does not get what it needs to operate properly.

2) Corrosion has set in on the contacts with the same results.

Replace the relays.

If they are plugin units its a simple job. Soldered units will be "through board" and can be de-soldered from the reverse side and new ones soldered in. Pretty easy job if you can use the iron and not overheat the board which will delaminated the traces. Non acid electronics flux, electronics solder (silver preferred) and a hot iron. Spend the money for a desoldering pump (10-20 bucks) to help you to not overheat the board. Solder wick sucks unless you do it all the time.

Take your relays to a local electronic supply and they will cross reference and get you the correct relay. There are many different ones with different requirements.

All bets are off if you have bad continuity between the relay output and the connection point at the awning. That would indicate a poor connection somewhere on the line between them.

Need more help feel free to call on me.

Jay

[HuntingHawk]

This is basically the same as switching relay for a well pump. Pressure switch is same as the toggle switch. Relays are relays. motor is motor. You know the motor is good. Toggle switch appears to work. Sometimes with a well pump you have to use a file board to clean the relay contacts for the pump to work right. Contacts can have corrosion or burned spots.
With the well pump the relays can click & click but if not making good connection system won't work.
Replace the relays.

[FIRE UP]

Gents,
My hats off to all of you that have responded. This is exactly what I was hoping for. As stated earlier, in the first post, I have limited or, basic automotive electrical knowledge. I can handle lights, wire toads, and few other simply things. Oh, and I used to be able to install "Points", REMEMBER THOSE????

But, anyway, as many of you have suggested, it sounds pretty much like it's the relays, but, not 100% just yet. I'm also linking two other videos of that same door awning in action, while it is on the coach. These videos were done when I first tried to analyze the retraction problem way back when we purchased the coach.

Now, in those videos, one will be an underside view and, you can see it go out and in a few times and, it eventually stops. The second one will be of a volt ohm meter that's piggy backed to the motor connections. In that one, I'm holding the V/O meter while the wife it actually pushing the toggle for extending and retracting it.

The video of the V/O meter is a bit blurry but, it's clear enough for you to observe the voltage in coordination of what I'm telling her to do. If you turn you volume up just a bit, you'll hear me tell her to go out, then in, then out and finally, on the trip in, you'll see the voltage drop enough that, the system just quits and, the awning ceases to travel in. At that point, you can hear her continue to push the toggle to try and make it continue on it's voyage in but, to no avail.

To the one responder who mentioned that I need to make sure there is a "good ground" to the unit, well, in reality, there is NO GROUND to that unit at all. As the other posters have stated, and, this is a fairly new concept to me, that motor switches direction via the polarity of the wires coming into it.

In the extension mode, one wire is hot and one is ground. In the retraction mode, those two wires reverse their role and, what was once a ground, is now a hot and, what was once a hot, is now a ground. That stuff is pure science to me.

OK, now, as for those two micro-relays, I'm pretty sure they're soldered to the board. I don't remember pulling that board, the last time I was messing with this system, trying to figure out what was the problem. And, as for any "adjusting pots" I don't think there's any of those either. I will look again but, pretty sure there are none. I'm pretty sure I know what they look like. If I recall, they're in sort of tiny "cube" type thing with a straight slot that a straight tipped screw driver might fit in.

There are however, some of those what's called "Dip-switches" on that board. I have no idea what they're for. I think this control board, actually handles both awnings, the door and the main one. The door one is not weather controlled but, the main one is. There are three separate toggles for that one. And, that main awning works flawlessly.

So, I will resume work on this tomorrow. There's lots to un plug off of that board, in case I want to remove it to get at the back side for possible de-soldering those relays.

And, to the one that stated it would not be hard to rig up a total separate, double relay system, I have considered that. But, again, I'm very limited in knowledge on how it would be wired. Anyways, it's late, I can't keep my old eyes open so, I'll say good night for now and resume operations in the morning (after I-hop breakfast that is). Thanks again.
Scott

[Old Car Nut]

Originally Posted by FIRE UP

Gents,


To the one responder who mentioned that I need to make sure there is a "good ground" to the unit, well, in reality, there is NO GROUND to that unit at all. As the other posters have stated, and, this is a fairly new concept to me, that motor switches direction via the polarity of the wires coming into it.
Scott

Scott, to help you understand how the basic motor electrical system works with those two relays reversing the polarity to the motor, here is a basic diagram. This schematic is for door lock actuators which is doing the exact same thing.



The rest of that circuit board is load sensing and the brain for the weather detecting system. I dip switches on a system like that are usually for programming a remote control or for logic functions like time delays etc.

In this diagram the relays get a 12v- signal to trigger one or the other relay.

Terminal 87a is the ground input. This is where the motor gets its ground.
Terminal 87 is power input from fuse panel/battery.
Terminal 30 is the output to the motor.
Terminal 85 is also 12v+ to trigger the coil in the relay to make it switch.
Terminal 86 is the negative signal that trips the relay.

When at rest both relays send 12V- (ground) as a default to the motor because 87a and 30 are connected.

When each relay is triggered (one or the other, in/out) 87a is disconnected from 30 and 87 connects sending 12V+ to one side of the motor.

A note here. You can test the output voltage of the relays on your board with a meter and everything looks normal without a load on it. Find the ground lead going into that box and check it for continuity. Have the awning motor wired to the box to check relay output voltage under load. You can also create another direct ground if you are certain you have the main ground input on the box. It should be a fairly large wire.

For more on 12v electrical circuity you all may find this site pretty handy.

[Old Car Nut]

This shows what is happening inside a "Single Pole Double Throw (SPDT) relay.

[neschultz]

Your relay terminals may also be marked as:

C - for "Common", Terminal 30 in Jays diagram

NC - for "Normally Closed". Terminal 87a in Jays diagram. C is connected to NC when the relay is not energized

NO - for "Normally Open". Terminal 87 in Jays diagram. C is connected to NO when the relay is energized

If it was me, here's what I would do next (no particular order):

1) Compare the motor voltage coming out of the two relays on the two C terminals to the voltage at the motor. If there is much difference (> than .25 volts or so), there is a bad connection between the relay board and the motor.

2) Check the voltage going to the relay coils to ensure it is adequate (for example, if its a 12 volt relay...and it likely is, much less than that on the coil wont energize it correctly). If it is not correct, the driving electronics on the board are bad.

3) Check to see if the voltage to the relays stays at 12 volts (meter across NC on the non energized relay and NO on the energized relay). If so, one or both relays are bad...see #4.

4) Check to see if there is a voltage drop across the relay contacts (meter across C to NC on the non energized relay and C to NO on the energized relay) when retract is pushed. If so, the relay with the voltage drop is bad.

5) If that voltage in #3 is not 12 volts, check to ensure that 12 volts is coming into the board. If it is, the board is bad or being current limited.

If none of those work, I'm fresh outta ideas.

I hope this helps. Good luck!

[tomsm]

Looks like you've gotten excellent help on your problem. I'll just contribute that the dip-switches control the wind sensitivity on the main awning, so you can ignore them as far the door awning problem...

[ChasA]

What I find strange is that you have a Carefree door awning with an A&E (Dometic) controller. Are you sure the door awning is Carefree brand?

[ImagineIF]

Monaco used to run under sized wiring for their awnings. They worked fine when new. As they aged and the battery voltage/capacity decreased awnings would not always retract. The controller would detect too much current. The fix was to install the proper gauge wiring. Check the voltage while operating the awning.

[f14av8r]

You sir have a current delivery problem. Finding where and why is the challenge but I'm absolutely certain that you have an obstacle in the path of your current flow to the motor. It's either a bad ground or a bad supply side.
The good news is that your switching system seems to be working properly. But, you have to make sure you have a clear, unimpeded path to that motor!

[FIRE UP]

Originally Posted by ChasA

What I find strange is that you have a Carefree door awning with an A&E (Dometic) controller. Are you sure the door awning is Carefree brand?

ChasA,
Yeah, when I first had this problem with this door awning, and started researching remedies for it, that's when I too got a tad bit confused about what I actually had. Well, we're the fourth owners of this coach. We're pretty sure that the original owner had the awnings upgraded to the top of the line ones when that coach rolled off the assembly line and hit the dealer, just prior to the first owner taking possession of it.

Now, as you see in the one picture, the control box has two major names on the label. A&E and, Dometic. But, all four electric awnings on our coach,
(1) main, (1) galley slide, (1) door and (1) rear bedroom window are all labeled with "Carefree of Colorado" on them. Now, I know in the business world, sometimes larger companies purchase smaller ones but, keep both names. So, why "Dometic" is on that label I have no idea other than, it has an interest in that awning system.

Now, is A&E and, Carefree of Colorado related in some way, I don't have a clue. I just know that I've got all of those names, on or in, components of the same operation, (awnings) on our coach.


To all others, I don't know how to thank all of you for taking the time to try and explain how things work in my awning control situation. I kind-a have prided myself on being able to fix about 99.999% of my stuff for eons of time. And, that includes a percentage of electrical issues. But, this "Relay" stuff, I've never had to deal with and, have never learned any of how it works. I know and realize that relays have been in the automotive world for decades but, I've never had to deal with one.

Now, it appears that I'm not only going to have to deal with ONE, but TWO at the same time, doing almost the same job. Man, I never get simple projects or, issues to fix. If any of you have seen my past posts on some of the repairs I've done on this coach, most of them are and have been seriously complicated. It's always me. But, I keep at it.

Anyway, I'll re-install that door awning and, put some load on those operating circuits and see what kind of voltage I get at all the check points. Thanks again to all of you. OUTSTANDING HELP HERE!!
Scott

[FIRE UP]

Originally Posted by ImagineIF

Monaco used to run under sized wiring for their awnings. They worked fine when new. As they aged and the battery voltage/capacity decreased awnings would not always retract. The controller would detect too much current. The fix was to install the proper gauge wiring. Check the voltage while operating the awning.

ImagineIF,
I thank you for your help and advice. If would Sir, go back to my last pictures I posted a couple of posts back and, if you click on the one with the blurry volt-ohm meter, it will lead you to a video of that awning opening and closing, along with the actual voltage being used to open, then close and, when it actually quits, you'll see the large voltage drop. So far, that's the only actual representative voltage I have for operating that awning. I will get more later.
Scott

Originally Posted by f14av8r

You sir have a current delivery problem. Finding where and why is the challenge but I'm absolutely certain that you have an obstacle in the path of your current flow to the motor. It's either a bad ground or a bad supply side.
The good news is that your switching system seems to be working properly. But, you have to make sure you have a clear, unimpeded path to that motor!

f14av8r,
I can't or, don't argue with your analysis. I'm not smart enough to know any better which, is why I'm asking on here. But, what's kind-a, sort-a, odd is, that door awning will, operate flawlessly for sometimes, up to three to four full extension/retraction cycles, without issue, just like it's supposed to. But, at other times, after we've extended it and camped for a while, then try and retract it, it just sits there. Or, if we've made the mistake of extending it to the point that the awning elbows have actually straightened out, it cannot overcome the tension of the bent (spring loaded bend) arms.

But, like stated, if at that time, I wait just a tad (about 3-5 minutes) and help that awning by pre-bending the elbows, it will, most of the time, then retract all the way in.

Now, just prior to me removing the awning for bench testing, I cycled it sometimes for 5-6 full cycles, (minus taking it to full extension and awning arms straightened out) and, it worked just fine. But, in the next cycle of extension and retraction, it just slows down and quits.

So, your statement of: "Obstacle in the path of your current" is, maybe off just a bit. Again, not arguing with you, just stating how this thing has worked fine then, just decides to give up the ghost, in the middle of a retraction. I would think that, if there was, as you say, "obstacle", it would not work at all, don't you think? I think this is more of a component either heating up or, well, not sure what else. It works, then doesn't, then works, then doesn't. Hmmmmmm.
Scott

[ImagineIF]

Yep, the voltage drop and troubleshooting using the toad battery directly connected to the awning pretty confirms what I and others suggest. You have a wiring/connectivity issue.

Disconnect the motor wires at the control box and jumper them to the battery like you did with the toad battery. If this works and the voltage drop is limited, then the problem is between the 12V fuse and the control box and/or control box and ground. If it doesn't work, then its the wiring 12V and/or ground between the control box and awning.

My last coach, a Monaco built Beaver, had this exact problem with its Carefree awning. In its case, the wiring was undersized between the 12V supply and the control box.

[nothermark]

A couple of thoughts:

The meter reading looks like a noisy signal the digitizer is having a problem with. I would try a different meter. Better yet try one with a needle. The voltage is not so much of an issue as is a steady reading.

There will be a small voltage drop if they are sensing the current and limiting it. Probably on the order of a volt if everything is working right. There is probably a low value resistor in series with the ground return feeding an op amp or transistor gain stage that controls a pass transistor that can cut the power off if it exceeds a set limit. It sounds like that is happening. See if there is a current limit adjustment. Bumping it up a small amount may solve your problem.

Also look for any capacitor that is leaking. They look like a small can. If there is one that has brown goo on the top it could be the problem. Motors are notoriously noisy electrically so I would expect some kind of filter to smooth out the current sensing signal. That would usually be a largish capacitor.


It really does sound like a controller problem. No idea what just replacing it would cost.

I would be tempted to use a light bulb in place of the motor and see what happens. If you can measure the current and do a similar load it would help. That way you can leave it on longer. You can also add a few small bulbs to see what happens if you increase the current.

Are you really sure nothing is binding? ;-)