Tap DC to DC into Positive Fuse Block vs Direct to Battery?

[dkoldman]

I need to know if it ok, reasonable, safe etc if I connect the positive output from a DC to DC charger that has a 60amp fuse on it to an existing Fuse block off the house batteries? I currently have two AGMs and both have two lugs on the standard m8x1.25x12mm screws. One battery has cable that goes to a 400 amp mega fuse, and the other battery has cable that goes to 225amp CNN fuse for Inverter.

My manual from Victron Energy, I was planning to connect the cable from DC to DC output direct on the House battery posts. However, I see that my current post are too short.

I have not researched where to buy a longer post screw for the M8, but wondering if I could simply attached the the positive output from DC to DC direct on one of the 2 existing positive fuse blocks? If so; which of the two 400amp versus 225 amp is best?

I need a longer post screw because I will have to have 3 lugs going forward. Lug that leads to 225 fuse block, Lug that leads to the 400 fuse block and Lug that goes to the DC to DC charger.

[creativepart]

Originally Posted by dkoldman

I need a longer post screw because I will have to have 3 lugs going forward. Lug that leads to 225 fuse block, Lug that leads to the 400 fuse block and Lug that goes to the DC to DC charger.

I would use a Positive Buss Bar in a case like this.

[Morich]

A " buss bar extention" would be what you are looking for in AC work. Likely the same is around for battery post extention?

[dkoldman]

Thanks to you both.

Let me make sure I clarify what is being said, and that I have properly laid out my circumstances.

Disclaimer, I am not questioning anything, but for a person like me with limited knowledge that tries to read and research before doing something like this, I get confused with the information sometimes. With that said, I also realize my limitations, and I try not to assume what I don't know.

I have watched videos where they installed the Orion with a Positive Fuse Block and in some cases they bought a new block as they said it was the preferred wiring. I even recall one where they said the bought a new fuse block because the current positive fuse block had posts that was too short.

Then I read the Victron Orion manual, it shows everything direct to the positive battery posts. Both Chassis & House. So my Chassis positive has plenty of room so I assume that is by the book?

Now because of the new Orion the existing M8 screws will be to short to add a 3rd Lug. So if I follow (see picture) I am being told that I can connect the Orion Output Lug for House battery to Position #1 which is the existing 400amp fuse block? I believe that is the same flow that current flows to house batteries from Alternator. I just wish to make sure it is okay to have a new device with 60amp fuse behind that 400amp fuse? ( or should it be in front of the 400amp fuse?)

Also, is the above the preferred approach? It sure seems like the wiring will be neater being on the 400 amp positive fuse block, but I wish to make sure it is not about me being cheap when I should go through the trouble to find and but a longer screw?

At the end of the day I just wish to know best practice.

[creativepart]

I'm not sure I understand what you want to do. So perhaps I shouldn't be responding. But I think you're saying you want to connect the D2D charger to your house battery bank to pick up alternator current for the charger and then route the D2D charger's charging output back to the house battery bank.

Is that what you are saying?

If so, that doesn't sound right. Going from the Chassis battery to the the D2D charger and then from there to the House batteries. Is the preferred route for wiring in a D2D charger.

I know you said you didn't want to have to run large gauge wiring long distances. But since your Chassis battery is under the hood then you're kind of stuck with that. Since you went with the 60 amp charger that dictates what wire gauge to use. I went with the 30-amp Victron so that I just needed to run 10ga wire and that's simple to run in my setup.

I don't have anything attached to my fuse blocks other than the main positive cabling. I don't know if anyone does that or if it's OK to do. But it "sounds" wrong to me.

DISCLAIMER: I'm stating my personal opinion and do not have any expert knowledge or information and this is just my gut feeling.

[creativepart]

Originally Posted by dkoldman

Now because of the new Orion the existing M8 screws will be to short to add a 3rd Lug. So if I follow (see picture) I

Is that photo your battery compartment, or just some photo you picked up? Because in that photo the chassis battery is on the far right.

And, to answer your question about the battery connection, yes, just buy longer battery M8 bolts.

[dkoldman]

Originally Posted by creativepart

I'm not sure I understand what you want to do. So perhaps I shouldn't be responding. But I think you're saying you want to connect the D2D charger to your house battery bank to pick up alternator current for the charger and then route the D2D charger's charging output back to the house battery bank.
Is that what you are saying? No this is not what I was saying.

If so, that doesn't sound right. Going from the Chassis battery to the the D2D charger and then from there to the House batteries. Is the preferred route for wiring in a D2D charger.

This is what I am doing and per manual. The issue is that when I take the positive output cable from D2D to direct connect to the positive post on house battery, the M8 1.25 screw on the House battery positive post is too short. I am questioning if I should try to find a long M8 1.25 battery post, or should I be connecting to one of the existing positive fuse blocks?

I know you said you didn't want to have to run large gauge wiring long distances. But since your Chassis battery is under the hood then you're kind of stuck with that. Since you went with the 60 amp charger that dictates what wire gauge to use. I went with the 30-amp Victron so that I just needed to run 10ga wire and that's simple to run in my setup.

My longest total run will be about 30 inches from D2D to Chassis. See picture above as the Chassis battery is right next to my house batteries. I ordered 4awg wiring BEFORE deciding exactly where the D2D will go, so length is not a factor for me. My Orion XS is 50 amp output, Orion recommended I use 60 amp fuses, so I have two 60 amp fuses to install.

I don't have anything attached to my fuse blocks other than the main positive cabling. I don't know if anyone does that or if it's OK to do. But it "sounds" wrong to me.

This is what I was try to clarify

DISCLAIMER: I'm stating my personal opinion and do not have any expert knowledge or information and this is just my gut feeling.

I may have to run out to see how hard it is to find longer M8 screws? I am sure they exist, but this is something I don't do everyday. If it is as simple as adding to existing Fuse block that is what I would do.

Also, I only mentioned the Alternator earlier because that flow of current will be cutoff when this wiring is done. I was just saying that the alternator today sends what ever current it has through the 400amp fuse block to charge House house. In theory if it cutoff, and the D2C is connected to the same block to charge the House battery it would be a wash and safe? But I don't know thus the thread.

[dkoldman]

Originally Posted by creativepart

Is that photo your battery compartment, or just some photo you picked up? Because in that photo the chassis battery is on the far right.

And, to answer your question about the battery connection, yes, just buy longer battery M8 bolts.

Yes sir, that is my battery compartment. I will head out shortly on a mission to find a longer M8 bolt. I will only need one.

Here are pictures of me new battery. I got incredible deal for a 300ah that had a flash sale for $387 ( Regular $559). Plus they are giving me $25 credit because I did want or need the charger that is included for free.

Thus far the NewtiPower battery has checked all of the boxes. I really love that Display to see SOC and voltage from BMS. It has low temp cutoff and 5 year warranty.


FWIW, this is when I realized that 3 lugs would not fit, so I need to get longer screw. I need a lug for 400amp block, 225 amp block and D2D charger all to fit on the one positive post when this new battery is installed

[dkoldman]

I was able to find a M8 x 1.25 x 16mm screw & washer from Ace Hardware. It fits nicely.

So when I get ready to install the Orion to the existing AGMs or to the new lithium battery; I will be able to use it and not worry about the OEM Fuse blocks. At least now I know I will be wired exactly like Victron Orion's manual.

From watching videos it seems like others were preferring to use Fuse Blocks. It is as if for every electrical problem, there must be two solutions; so whenever the novice picks one, they can always be told that did the wrong one later

[Wmlunt]

I wouldn’t stack 3 lugs on a connection!
UL listings for electrical panels only allow a max of 2 rings per connection for a reason. Especially on high amp connections like you are discussing.
And ground lugs must use star washers against the chassis to bite in…
My 2 cents from electrical engineering in industrial environment for many decades.
Bill

[dkoldman]

Originally Posted by Wmlunt

I wouldn’t stack 3 lugs on a connection!
UL listings for electrical panels only allow a max of 2 rings per connection for a reason. Especially on high amp connections like you are discussing.
And ground lugs must use star washers against the chassis to bite in…
My 2 cents from electrical engineering in industrial environment for many decades.
Bill

Electrical engineering quite often defies logic in real world. In this case it is not an electrical panel but a battery post.

Also it is by design of Victron Energy. I created this thread to see if there was an option for my design which includes a picture. Based on what you state, how would you wire?

Right now WBGO has two lugs on both house batteries positive post, when you go to one 300ah battery you drop the parallel connector lug, but you have to add the 400amp lug House and the 225amp lug Inverter so that is your two. But to add the 60amp lug from Orion XS that is how I got three.

I have a 4mm longer screw so I can install this way when I get my crimper from the lugs.

[powercat_ras]

Make sure your longer fastener does not bottom out in the hole in the LiFe battery posts, you could break the post internally if it bottoms out and you continue to tighten and this would require major warranty voiding cutting the top off of the battery to resolve.

[dkoldman]

Originally Posted by powercat_ras

Make sure your longer fastener does not bottom out in the hole in the LiFe battery posts, you could break the post internally if it bottoms out and you continue to tighten and this would require major warranty voiding cutting the top off of the battery to resolve.

That is a good point, I had to resist the temptation of picking up a 20mm screw. It comes with 12mm and I bought the attached at 16 mm. If I only use two lugs it might be a problem. I have a washer but may add a second washer just to be sure. Thanks

When I get my special crimping tool, I can complete the lugs for the ends where it will ground to the chassis block, and both batteries. At that point, I can power up my Orion XS and see how it works. I am planning to make it all work with my existing AGMs before I put in the Lithium, I will need the new longer screw on one of the AGM battery post as well.

[dkoldman]

According to the Association of Battery Industry (ABYC), you should not secure more than four conductors to a single terminal stud on a battery post. Too many connections can lead to heat or arcing, which could potentially start a fire.

So in my forced requirement above, not only will 3 lugs be acceptable, but should I ever decide to add a 2nd 300ah battery and place in parallel, I will be forced to have a 4th lug (connector), but with the introduction of a 2nd positive post from 2nd house battery, I will have more options to safely distribute. With that said, this was not my real question, I was really wanting to know if it would be better to put the DC to DC output lug on an existing positive fuse block despite what the Victron Energy's manual said.

I concluded to follow the Victron Energy manual wiring specifications while staying within the safety parameters of the Association of Battery Industry.

[Wmlunt]

Not my equipment, so not my concern. I don’t want to force safety standards on anyone, cheaper than using terminal blocks so have at it, no one wants to follow code, they know better.
UL lists many types of electrical equipment and has the longest running safety standards. I would trust UL listed and UL recognized standards over other standards.

[Wmlunt]

Originally Posted by Wmlunt

Not my equipment, so not my concern. I don’t want to force safety standards on anyone, cheaper than using terminal blocks so have at it, no one wants to follow code, they know better.
UL lists many types of electrical equipment and has the longest running safety standards. I would trust UL listed and UL recognized standards over other standards.

And contrary to the supplied pictures I would use lock washers. We do all travel down the road, and I for one find that to be a dynamic vibration prone environment…

[dkoldman]

I finished the Victron Energy Orion XS 50amp install last night. Pictures at this link.

https://www.winnieowners.com/forums/...ml#post3956105

I did NOT install my new 300ah Lithium battery. I want to run a little while with the new charger, DC2DC and my new wiring before putting in the Lithium. Plus my AGMs still have some life.

Attached you can see where I still had to use my new 16mm bolt to get all three lugs on one positive post. It works fine and good fit. When I do install the Lithium, I will use the same 16mm bolt.

[dkoldman]

Originally Posted by dkoldman

Yes sir, that is my battery compartment. I will head out shortly on a mission to find a longer M8 bolt. I will only need one.

Here are pictures of me new battery. I got incredible deal for a 300ah that had a flash sale for $387 ( Regular $559). Plus they are giving me $25 credit because I did want or need the charger that is included for free.

Thus far the NewtiPower battery has checked all of the boxes. I really love that Display to see SOC and voltage from BMS. It has low temp cutoff and 5 year warranty.


FWIW, this is when I realized that 3 lugs would not fit, so I need to get longer screw. I need a lug for 400amp block, 225 amp block and D2D charger all to fit on the one positive post when this new battery is installed

Followup on the ongoing capacity testing of this battery. A 5ah draw at 12 hours per day. It just put out 300ah @12.6vdc & reading 18% SOC.

300 AH
12.6 VDC
18% SOC

So given my AGS will not kick in until 12.5vdc, I should get in excess of 300ah before it gets down to 14%.

[bigb]

American Boat & Yacht Council - ABYC

10 COMMON MISTAKES IN BATTERIES INSTALLATIONS
Battery installation is the area where we often see the same mistakes that can potentially lead to dangerous situations. These are just the most common ones that could be easily avoided or corrected.
• More than four terminals on a single battery stud.
No more than four conductor terminals are permitted to be installed on a single battery stud.
• Small wire terminal installed under the larger terminal.
Multiple conductors connected to a battery shall be installed with the highest ampacity conductor terminal closest to the battery, followed by successively smaller ampacity conductor terminals.
• Washers placed under or between wire terminals.
Flat washers, if used, shall only be installed immediately under the lock washer and nut of the attachment stud.
.
• Lack of or wrong location of overcurrent protection.
Ungrounded conductors shall be provided with overcurrent protection within a distance of seven inches (178 mm) of the point at which the conductor is connected to the source of power measured along the conductor. There are a few exceptions from this rule (e.g., if the conductor is connected directly to the battery terminal and is contained throughout its entire distance in a sheath or enclosure, the overcurrent protection shall be placed as close as practicable to the battery, but not to exceed 72 inches - 1.83 m).
• Lack of proper restraining.
Batteries, as installed, shall be restrained to not move more than one inch (25 mm) in any direction when a pulling force of twice the battery weight is applied through the center of gravity of the battery (see ABYC E-10 for more details).
• Lack of a tray, box, or other means to contain spilled electrolyte.
Provision shall be made to contain incidental leakage and spillage of electrolyte. Consideration should be given to the type of battery installed (e.g., liquid electrolyte or immobilized electrolyte) and the boat in which the battery is installed (e.g., angles of heel for sailboats, and accelerations for powerboats).
• Lack of adequate ventilation.
A vent system or other means shall be provided to permit the discharge from the boat of hydrogen gas released by the battery. Battery boxes, whose cover forms a pocket over the battery, shall be vented at the uppermost portion of the cover. These requirements also apply to installations of all batteries whether they employ removable vent caps, non-removable caps, are “sealed” or “maintenance free” batteries, or have pressure regulated valve vent systems with immobilized electrolyte (gel and AGM batteries).
• Positive terminal not protected from accidental contact.
To prevent accidental contact of the positive (ungrounded) battery connection to ground, each battery shall be protected so that metallic objects cannot come into contact with the positive battery terminal and uninsulated cell straps. This may be done by covering the positive battery terminal with a boot or non-conductive shield, or installing the battery in a covered battery box, or installing the battery in a compartment specially designed only for the battery(s).
• Use of wing nuts to attach conductors larger than 8 AWG.
Conductors size 6 AWG (13.3 mm²) and larger shall not be connected to the battery with wing nuts. Only 8 AWG or smaller conductors can be attached with wing nuts.
• Lack of battery switch, incorrect location, or rating of the battery switch.
A battery switch shall be installed in the positive conductor(s) from each battery or battery bank with a CCA rating greater than 800 amperes or 100 Ah if CCA is unavailable. Certain loads can be located to the battery side of the switch (electronic equipment with continuously powered memory, safety equipment such as bilge pumps, alarms, CO detectors and bilge blowers, battery charging equipment, or impressed current systems).
A battery switch shall be mounted in a readily accessible location as close as practicable to the battery.
The 30 second rating of a battery switch shall not be less than the maximum cranking current of the largest engine cranking motor that it serves.
The minimum continuous rating of a battery switch shall be the total of the ampacities of the main overcurrent protection devices connected to the battery switch, or the ampacity of the feeder cable to the switch, whichever is less.