Very Strange Motor & Genset

[BugSlayer]

In the past I have posted about some battery problems and while I have had some helpful suggestions here, my problems have gone undiagnosed at the dealer or the Freightliner shops. Now that I have my third complete set of batteries (thats right, 15 batteries in an '05 Journey) all seemed fine till I went out to the storage yard Sunday. I was forced to use the battery override (MOM Switch) which gangs house and chassis batteries together to get the engine started as there was insufficient charge to start the genset by itself. Once the emgine was running, all seemed right as everything was charging and I got the genset running. I ran it for about an hour at 1000 RPM and ran the genset as well. When I shut down the engine, the genset quit with it and the signal tone for the house battery disconnect went off, just as it would when I activate the dash mounted disconnect when I leave the coach in storage. I was not able to start the genset without the motor running and I went through this process three times with the same results.

I decided the best thing to do was disconnect the chassis batteries to prevent them from being drawn down but having disconnected the positive side, I still had power in the coach! I went back to disconnect the negative side of the house batteries and (this is very strange) the negative side sparked when I removed it!

The only mods done to the electrical system was the installation, by my dealer, of the trick-l-start option to allow charging of all batteries when a power source was present.

Any ideas? I have an appointment with my dealer coming up on 10/3. Anyone seen anything like this before?

[BugSlayer]

In the past I have posted about some battery problems and while I have had some helpful suggestions here, my problems have gone undiagnosed at the dealer or the Freightliner shops. Now that I have my third complete set of batteries (thats right, 15 batteries in an '05 Journey) all seemed fine till I went out to the storage yard Sunday. I was forced to use the battery override (MOM Switch) which gangs house and chassis batteries together to get the engine started as there was insufficient charge to start the genset by itself. Once the emgine was running, all seemed right as everything was charging and I got the genset running. I ran it for about an hour at 1000 RPM and ran the genset as well. When I shut down the engine, the genset quit with it and the signal tone for the house battery disconnect went off, just as it would when I activate the dash mounted disconnect when I leave the coach in storage. I was not able to start the genset without the motor running and I went through this process three times with the same results.

I decided the best thing to do was disconnect the chassis batteries to prevent them from being drawn down but having disconnected the positive side, I still had power in the coach! I went back to disconnect the negative side of the house batteries and (this is very strange) the negative side sparked when I removed it!

The only mods done to the electrical system was the installation, by my dealer, of the trick-l-start option to allow charging of all batteries when a power source was present.

Any ideas? I have an appointment with my dealer coming up on 10/3. Anyone seen anything like this before?

[Moder2]

Russ,

I sounds to me like your House battery Disconnect Solenoid might be bad. Does your coach have the Intellitec B.I.R.D. System?

John

[BugSlayer]

Does your coach have the Intellitec B.I.R.D.

Not sure what that is so I guess not? I agree there is something in the disconnect system that is not right.

Thanks!

[CHIPPYSGT]

You should always disconnect the negative side of the batteries first and hook them up last. Just like when using jumper cables.

The sparks are normal and won't hurt you although they make me jump even knowing they're coming.

I solved the disconnect problem by putting quick disconnects on all my batteries. You can buy them at Wal-Mart. I also stopped the battery tray corrosion problem by putting each battery in a Wal-Mart battery box.

I always disconnect my batteries when I put the rig in storage.

Once you get your switch problem fixed, install a Trik-L-Start. It will keep your chassis batteries charged when you're hooked up to shore power. Otherwise they'll eventually go dead from the parasitic drain.

[BugSlayer]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">You should always disconnect the negative side of the batteries first and hook them up last. Just like when using jumper cables. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Got that part, thanks!



<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">The sparks are normal and won't hurt you although they make me jump even knowing they're coming. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Yeah, but this surprised me because the negative side was sparking!

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">I solved the disconnect problem by putting quick disconnects on all my batteries. You can buy them at Wal-Mart. I also stopped the battery tray corrosion problem by putting each battery in a Wal-Mart battery box. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Good advice! Did you put a disconnect on each battery or one on the chassis and a separate on the house? Did you use the blade type?

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">I always disconnect my batteries when I put the rig in storage. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Do you remove them for winter? Here in the Baltimore area we do get a few months of cold and I had discharged and frozen batteries last spring.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Once you get your switch problem fixed, install a Trik-L-Start. It will keep your chassis batteries charged when you're hooked up to shore power. Otherwise they'll eventually go dead from the parasitic drain. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Actually, I had the Trick-L-Start installed after replacing the batteries in the spring but I do not have the option to plug in during storage. It does seem to help keep everything up when I am running or able to plug in! Thanks for the advice!

[AFChap]

With the batteries having been changed out (more than once!), I wonder if some battery cables are installed wrong. My reasoning: 1) the generator should start/run from the house batteries but will not do either, Conclusion one: it is not getting power from the house batteries (and/or they are completely dead). 2) The positive post of the chassis batteries was disconnected but you still had power to the coach (I presume you mean to items normally powered by the chassis battery.) Conclusion two: battery cables may be crossed somewhere and providing no power to the house circuits and full power to the chassis circuits when that circuit should be dead.

[BugSlayer]

Paul,

Some of the same thoughts I have had but it has been to the dealer and to a Freightliner shop each time I previously ended up putting in new batteries. Each time they assured me that all was right and the problem was either a dead cell, in the first change, and the chassis shop told me the charging system was fine. Not being smart (really) but I suspect that the system should not check out if they actually tested it? At any rate, I will pursue your conclusions if my dealer cannot find anything wrong with the Winnebago side of the rig.

This division of responsibility was not something I knew about when I first bought the rig and it makes life interesting.

Thanks for taking the time and the suggestions!

[SCVJeff]

Russ: It sounds like there may be 2 issues going on here. One may be the contactor causing to loss of power, but you didn't mention how long the unit has set before killing the batteries? It seems to be a known problem that the 15W solar charger can't maintain all 5 batteries from natural resistance discharge plus trying to keep the engine and transmission memories alive. Mine seemed to be about 4 weeks before I got into trouble.

I really wasn't interested in pulling power on the engine and trans memory and having to teach the Allison how to shift all over every time I drive off again (and I have no idea what the ramifications are on the diesel), so I took the hit and installed solar panels large enough to easily keep the batteries charged. In fact twice now I left the coach powered up (house contactor on) for a full week by accident with zero effect on the condition of any of the batteries, as it should be.

I'm not necessarily advocating solar, but if you're paying for 15 new batteries out of your pocket, you just paid for a pretty nice solar system, no?

[BugSlayer]

Jeff,

I agree. In fact the idea that the unit has a parasitic drain and the length of time between uses actually 'masked' the issue from the start because I let the unit sit for three to four weeks and then went out to start it. Eventually I had to go out every two weeks and finally every week was not sufficient. At that time I was told that this may the cause of my problem. In all fairness, Winnebago stepped up on that set of batteries since the coach was only a few months old. I made it through the following season with a couple of trips and had no problem till November of the second year when I again realized I was having problems and my dealer sent me to a Freightliner shop. They said much the same about length of storage and checked the charging system. This time Freightliner picked up half the cost because the chassis was still under warranty. Finally in February of this year I returned from a business trip and found all my batteries drained and bulging from being frozen. I got a lot of help from people on this board who convinced me to stop trying to jump start the unit and replace the batteries and get the Trick-L-Start mod. That has been done but I believe that this problem may have been there all along or might have just happened but it certainly is part of the issue.

I am not so worried about cutting power as I have been told that there are no long term implications for either the transmission or the diesel.

Solar may be the answer for me but I have to get the unit operating correctly first!

Thanks, Jeff!

[CHIPPYSGT]

Russ,

I leave my batteries installed in the m/h but it's a bit warmer here than in Baltimore.

I only have the disconnects on the batteries that have cables running to the chassis and the coach. So far no problems. I used to have to use the Aux start button but the disconnects have solved that problem so far.

[BugSlayer]

I am bringing this thread back to the top since I have had my visit with the dealer and there are a few things to report. First, thanks again to those who offered help and guidance. Always appreciated.

I took the coach in to the dealer for service and told them all the things that I have mentioned in this thread. The tech, who is a senior guy who has pulled my bacon out of the fire before, listened and asked me if I stored it plugged in? I told him I did not have that option and he told me that he was not surprised at any of the problems I was having and that they were all normal for batteries that were abused as I abuse mine.

He said the genset would shut off when the motor is turned off if the batteries are weak. He said the LP gas alarm sounding a weak tone when this happened was likely also when the house batteries were low.

I told him that even though I could not plug it in, I did go out every two weeks and run the motor for a while and the generator for at least an hour. He said I was wasting my time as the generator was not going to charge the batteries because the alternator was already placing current across them and the generator sensing device would ˜see' this as a fully charged battery. Meanwhile, the charge that I did see was a surface charge and was quickly depleted. This is what accounts for the appearance of a constant drain.

My only options are to use the coach more often. (I like this).

Plug the coach in when stored.

Run a trickle charge to the coach. He did caution that the last two options could lead to boiling the batteries and he stressed the need to remove the charge for a few days each week to prevent this.

I am leaving in the coach for a few days tomorrow but will try to negotiate an electrical option when I return it to storage. I see a set of battery cut off switches in the near future and I suspect I will be pulling them from the coach during the worst part of winter storage.

Just thought I would share this for those that will come along in similar situations and, no doubt, have the same problems.

[Duner]

Russ,
I guess it boils down to cost vs convenience.

I think the only practical solution is to "plug the coach in when stored."�

Can you pay the storage facility for a little 117VAC? Or run a really long extension cord to a neighbor since you'll only need a couple amps 24/7 to maintain a charge.

Your '05 Journey should have a Dimensions Inverter/Converter along with the trick-l-start will keep all the batteries charged but not over-charged. You just need be sure the battery water level is always up. Check monthly until you get a feel for how much water is consumed - then you can check less often.

One other thought ....
What if you had the Automatic Generator Start option installed where it kicks on the gen when the voltage drops low? This might involve changing out the Dimensions unit for a Xantrex $$$. I don't know if Dimensions has the capability for this option. Anyway, I don't have this, and I'm not sure it is recommended for long unattended periods.

Good Luck,
Duner