Xantrex Freedom e-GEN Lithium Battery system

F702119 · 07-05-2018, 03:09 AM

Yesterday I found the news that Xantrex would sell a Lithium battery for RVs Class B.

Here the link to the company page: Freedom e-GEN Powered by Xantrex.

Here is a very interesting page: RV Lithium/AGM Battery & Electrical System Upgrade - Part 4 - Lithium Battery Installation - TheRVgeeks.

I downloaded the brochure and product manual but after a first moment of exultation I was disappointed.

If what the manual says is true, the battery has only 600 Ah. I do not understand how they can claim that this battery can detach the RV from the network and work without a generator. It should even make the air conditioning work! Absurd!

On my RV I have 1.3 kW of lead batteries but they are not remotely sufficient to run the air conditioning. It would not even 6 kW, but 20 to 30 kW for a decent daily operation!

What is the purpose of this battery? It is not clear how much it costs and not even the weight, but from the videos it's pretty big, how do they load it on a RV class B?

I'm afraid we'll have to wait a long time to see our RV really free from the electrical grid.

Greetings

Tony

**creativepart** · 07-05-2018, 07:58 AM

First, most lead acid deep cycle batteries store between 80 and 100 amps. Of which only 50% is available for use. But Li batteries can use 80% or more of their available amps without damage. So, assuming most class Bs have 200 amps of battery storage, but can only use 50% of that without damaging the batteries, then adding 600 amps of Li batteries would increase the available power by roughly 5 times.

With the right inverter it could start and run the AC, just not for very long.

600 amps of lithium batteries would be much lighter that 600 amps of lead acid batteries but 10 times the cost. A good guess of the price is probably around $6,000. Could be more.

Plus, to be really off the grid you would need more solar charging capability than a 40’ Class A could allow to somehow fit on a class B roof.

I think you might have some incorrect assumptions about all of this.

Changing to Li batteries in any RV would greatly increase the available amps stored (at great cost) and permit much more power for off the grid camping. But, at this time cannot replace a generator or shore power for things like AC appliances.

When you apply this to a small RV like a class B the extra power would be great. But as you say not really going to run the AC all day.

jerichorick · 07-05-2018, 08:35 AM

Bate and switch? Never liked Xantrex. Had (my still have ) poor support.

600ah is strong enough to run basics in my rig. Same as AGM's but would run longer. I noticed they are not advertising what battery they are recommending.

F702119 · 07-05-2018, 09:32 AM

It would really interest me, because I have 1.2 kW of solar panels on the roof and in full sun is a great help, but the Xantrex battery is still too small.

It's much more interesting the Tesla's Power Wall (10 kW), the problem (apart the costs) is that does not work if you are not connected to the grid, it's not designed for use on RV.

I heard a Tesla vendor and he confirmed that with actual products it's impossible an installation on RV.

But... a 10 kW battery is already interesting for a class A.

I'm afraid we should wait a few more years.

powercat_ras · 07-05-2018, 10:13 AM

> I'm afraid we should wait a few more years.

The future is now :-)

Winnebago is now making and selling their version of this in the Travato 59KL and 59GL Class Bs. Looks very well thought out, and integrated well into the coach. Winnebago is marketing this as the "Pure 3 Energy Management System". It does not match the Xantrex Freedom e-GEN system specs. They used a system from a different company called Volta.

- They use a 200 pound Li electric hybrid vehicle battery pack storing 8.7 Kilowatts mounted below the floor, it is properly ventilated so it does not get too hot or too cold.

- They use a 3,600 Watt Pure Sine Output Charger powering all AC systems in the RV including the Air Conditioner.

- Power for driving loads and charging batteries comes from either 30 Amp Shore Cable or a 2nd 58 volt over 4 kW peak output Alternator Winnebago adds to the Ram Promaster Chassis.

- Solar panels and controller for up to 200 Watts of Solar is integrated. One solar panel standard.

- The controller adds Ram Promaster Chassis Autostart and can fast idle the gasoline chassis engine to when needed to have alternator output meet load requirements.

powercat_ras · 07-05-2018, 10:23 AM

Lichtsinn web page and video on Travato 59KL and 59GL

**creativepart** · 07-05-2018, 11:14 AM

Look on Youtube - there are a number of RVers that have purchased partial Tesla battery packs from wrecked cars for installation in RVs. And at least one guy in Phoenix with a Nissan Leaf battery pack building a bus conversion RV.

This issue is really a space issue - and cost - but on a Class B you are extremely limited on space.

The WBGO Travato with Li Power is neat and will run the AC, but not for very long and not without additional solar or running the vehicle's engine to keep the batteries charged.

You keep talking Kilowatts - and most RVers speak in Watts or Amps. What is your 1.2KW of solar panels? That would be 6-200 watt solar panels. On a Class B? How do you fit them? Or are you figuring 100 Watts of solar power for 12 hours a day?

I would think that you should be able to get as much as 400 watts of solar on a Class B. But keep in mind that that figure is in ideal conditions for a short period of a day of complete sun, with no shade or shadows. That's a max amount that is never achieved for any extended period of time.

I have 300 Watts of solar charging 400 Amp hours of AGM batteries and a 2000 Watt PSW inverter. This will run a residential refrigerator and power a couple of TVs without a problem for a few days, but to run microwave, heater and or other power hungry appliances is impossible without recharging via the generator on my RV a few hours a day, too.

Here's a photo of my roof. 3-100 watt panels. I have room for probably 6-200 watt panels - that would be your 1.2 kw. But I don't have the equipment necessary to take advantage of all that solar. AND I still want to be able to walk around the roof to service things.

F702119 · 07-05-2018, 05:26 PM

I have a class A RV (38') and 4 solar panel from 300 watts each.

Look the aerial photo... of my motorhome in parking...

That's why I'm interested in lithium batteries.

I did not know about the Winnebago Travato, it could be the right solution, the problem is if it can be installed after market.

**creativepart** · 07-05-2018, 05:36 PM

Oh, I see. You were talking Class B so I was at a loss to see how you got 1.2kw on a Class B.

For that matter 300 watt panels are fairly rare too. 100's, 150's. and 200's are much more common.

You can get Li Batteries to replace your lead/acid batteries from a number of places that specialize in RVs (and boats).

There are many companies that are making Li Batteries the same size and shape as lead betteries so you simply swap out the lead bats and put in the Li bats.

They go for around $1500 for a 100 watt. Obviously you need to change your charger but many modern inverter/chargers can be set to charge Li bats.

The thing about the Xantrex system that the Geeks installed is that you order the size box that will fit your rig and they'll custom make a battery to fit. And, it will include battery monitoring and temp sensing built in. They said it's also insulated too.

You can't freeze Li Bat ever, at all. And, you shouldn't over heat them either.

Here's some links:

https://nexgenbattery.com/shop/
https://relionbattery.com/products/l...ional-vehicles
https://battlebornbatteries.com/
https://amsolar.com/

LarryW · 07-05-2018, 05:40 PM

“First, most lead acid deep cycle batteries store between 80 and 100 amps.”

No, creative, that’s not correct. Group 24s do but not the others. See for instance https://www.trojanbattery.com/produc...ine-flooded-2/

**creativepart** · 07-05-2018, 05:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by LarryW

“First, most lead acid deep cycle batteries store between 80 and 100 amps.”

No, creative, that’s not correct. Group 24s do but not the others.

Obviously, not. This thread started out talking about batteries in Class B RVs. And so, my info was limited to that and was not to mean that there are not Lead Acid batteries that are higher than 100 amps.

When someone asks a question you never know enough specifics to tailor an answer to the exact situation of the person asking the question.

Just trying to help. That's what forums are for.

F702119 · 07-05-2018, 06:31 PM

OK, no problem, what matters is that in a short time we have put together a mass of really interesting information.

Lithium batteries are the near future and now we understand that it is very close.

The only problem for now is the very high costs.

When lithium batteries will cost like lead-acid batteries, we'll be fine!

I think it will still take at least 4-5 years.

powercat_ras · 07-05-2018, 10:10 PM

The electric car battery packs storing 10 Kilowatts are similar to having 8 200 amp hour golf cart batteries, with less than 1/4 the weight. They can be charged 8 times faster. They last 8 years or more.

Volta has created several systems for Class As and Class Cs that Winnebago and other Coach Builders will be introducing Coaches on. I susupect we will see quite a few 2019 coaches offering this as coach build option similar to how Winnebago did it on the Travato.

These systems will allow for propane free, residential refrigerator coaches that still have a decent boondocking capabiltity without needing to use the RV in only sunny areas and have tons of solar panels.

Other neat features

- the dedicated 6000 Watt Alternator added to the chassis engine gives full use of all AC powered items in the coach when traveling, while using less than 10 horsepower of engine power so should not impact drive-ability. Driving will recharge batteries quickly.

- reference designs have been created to duplicate current 30 amp coach designs and current 50 amp coach designs.

- systems will have batteries sized so that coach can be used with no restrictions including running ACs or Heat Pumps at 50% duty cycle for up to about a half day without generator starting to do battery recharge.

- coaches can still have fuel powered generator but it will just be for battery pack recharge so it will be running only at full load making it very fuel efficient. Generator will be sized to recharge depleted batteries with 1 hour run time.

- Volta has created a Variable Output Air Cond Compressor and Electric Fans to blow air across the coach AC evaporator that both run directly off the 50 Volt Electric Battery System. This is similar to how AC in Electric Vehicles like Prius work. So you could have a souped up version of the coach dash AC ducted and sized to cool the entire coach and lose the noisy roof top ACs.

I can't wait to see what the Winnie engineers conjur up for 2019.

Kayak73 · 07-06-2018, 05:45 AM

All great talk about Lithium and RVs. Some have made attempts and there are several utubes showing electrical engineers explaining how they put ya-da-da battery in their RV, like a Tesla etc. All great and wonderful but they do NOT touch the average RV user needs, not even close. Today if you need power you buy wet or AGM, depending on your particular whim. I would not bet any money that WGO is working very hard on making an energy efficient coach based on what they turned out for a 2018 View 24D and exactly what they turned out for a 2019 version of the same rig. Compressor refrigerator with two dinky group 24 batteries, not even deep cycle. States on the case "not for inverter use" yet WGO chose to put those into the rigs along with a 1000 watt PSW inverter? Nope, WGO is not close with the exception of the class B mentioned. Then they dropped in a PD9245 converter which should have been a 55 or 60amp model. My goodness! There is no available "drop-in" lithium battery pack today. You will need to change the converter, solar controller, isolation solenoid - all kinds of stuff, just did a lot of research because my needs pointed to Lithium as the best solution - it was not. Perhaps in a few years but it can be done today if you want to buy the battery for 2-3k dollars then double that by making the mods and after you do that you might or might not get the cycle life they project because the systems available today on the market are not really primed for this battery. Let me see, yep, I was an electrical engineer, math and physics hard core but my solution was to follow another's lead and take the Sawzall to the silly battery tray and Frankenchop it so two Trojan T-1275s would fit in that space. Cost= lot of sweat on a hot humid day, $150 per battery + tax, one new 3ft black 1/0 cable. Likely life expectancy of these batteries is 5-7 years. Yes, paid the 85 pound weight penalty. Yes, they run the compressor refrigerator (very loud refer) overnight plus my CPAP and a bit of TV or music plus other necessary loads. I think the new lithium batteries SOUND great - until you try to install them. Will RV makers jump on board for anything other than a trial model - time will tell but for the consumer it will mean a hefty price increase. Just imagine - they can't get it right with wet cells yet do you think they really could produce off the line new energy products? Thinking about all the issues owners have with new coaches today I would prefer they just leave the electrical stuff alone, they can't manage it today without "rocket science" and give them a bit of technology they could make the perfect rig to sit parked it's whole life time in a driveway or lot somewhere. Then again, I may be wrong.

F702119 · 07-06-2018, 09:18 AM

Just for those who are not an electronic engineer could you explain yourself better?

Apart from the current astronomical costs because you do not believe that lithium is the solution?

Kayak73 · 07-06-2018, 09:54 AM

I agree that LiION type batteries are a perfect solution, the means to implement them for the average RV owner just do not exist today to reach their potential. It is not just the "astronomical" cost of the battery but double that to mod the rest of the coach to operate them without damage to the battery. You might do better to have a separate alternator for example and keep the house battery isolated from the chassis totally (no Trik-L-Start or Amp-L-Start required or allowed). That's because the charging of the lithium would soon destroy the chassis battery. Many things are possible, less things are practical. It can be done, it could be done. It would be far more economical if the RV manufacturers built the rig with design parameters for the Lithium battery but that puts the price much higher and they want to SELL, not make a high dollar rig more so. For example there are converters like the IOTA DSL with a lithium module which will charge these batteries properly but that's on your dime to install the "drop-in" battery which is not actually that. You then need a Victron MPPT controller with setting for lithium. In reality none of those components actually are the best electrical fit. To get that you need the Tesla style engineering to monitor the battery, control the battery, provide the charge and all those components would be custom built just like Tesla does based on the battery. It will happen, it can happen but it is not there today without a great deal of work and ability to design the solution; therefore it is not a generally available solution for RV owners today and the advertisement of these batteries as "drop-in" is a bad misnomer. You can make them work with components as noted but the cycle life will probably be impacted. You can do a lot of things but are they economically realistic or warranted, necessary in other words. Another electrical engineer made the same conclusion based on the parameters of my rig and the cost to make the conversion, he works for a company which sells the lithium batteries and they are not drop-in things at all.

al1florida · 07-08-2018, 07:47 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by creativepart

For that matter 300 watt panels are fairly rare too. 100's, 150's. and 200's are much more common.

300 watt and a little larger are quite common. Here is a link to where you can buy 290 to 325 watt panels. Many cost about $1/watt. https://www.solar-electric.com/resid...ar-panels.html

I installed two 325 watt panels on the roof if my 29' Class A and have room to walk around to clean the panes and access other things as well.

al1florida · 07-08-2018, 07:57 AM

While there are some folks who have used electric or hybrid auto batteries in an RV, it is not an easy install. These battery packs don't come 12V output. Generally much higher voltage. So you have to do a lot of design work to get them to produce 12V for your RV.

On the other hand there are several companies which supply 12V (nominal) batteries for RV's. Here a couple of companies:
Lithium Ion Battery For RV and Boat - LiFePO4 LFP - Starlight Solar
https://www.lithiumion-batteries.com...m-ion-battery/

al1florida · 07-08-2018, 08:03 AM

As far as operating your air conditioner from your batteries & solar system, we are not yet there for long term operation of the A/C. That is running the A/C for 8-10 hours or especially overnight w/o a generator of some sort.

However for short term such as 3-4 hours in the afternoon to cool the RV down until the sun sets and the day cools off, that is practical with a properly designed system.

Here is an example:
Running an RV AC off Solar, Batteries, and a Hybrid Boosting Inverter | Technomadia

al1florida · 07-08-2018, 08:14 AM

As far as running the A/C off of lead acid batteries, it is just not practical.

-- The voltage sag when pulling high amps from the battery pack. Lead acid that is 75-80% full is already down to about 12.4V from the full charge voltage of about 12.6V. Adding the heavy load will drop that voltage down to 12.2V or even lower. Additionally after 2-3 hours your voltage is probably going to be down to 12.0V or lower. With lithium your voltage under load stays pretty stable down to 80% discharged (20% full), at about 13.0-13.2V. Your inverter is much happier with the 13+ volts than the 12 or so volts from lead acid.

-- The weight of 600-800AH of battery is huge and will overload many or most RV's.

-- Charging lead acid batteries back to 100% full takes a long time after being down to 50% full. While the charging starts off a a pretty high current it tapers off pretty quickly. The last 10-15% of charging takes quite a few hours of generator or solar time. Lithium will take the full amount of current you can throw at it (with in the batteries design capabilities) until it is full.