Yet another solenoid bites the dust! - Page 3

tderonne · 06-22-2008, 10:05 AM

Just getting to work on my relay.

It's not any of the part numbers above. Nor is able to be disassembled and reassembled easily, it's a metal can with a crimped top. Took it apart (of course!) and the contacts are pretty burned up, lot's of black, and it smells.

It's a part number 936-1215-011-21 Trombetta.

Being that we're leaving Friday on a vacation, I think I'm going to see what our local Napa has. They seem to be where folks get continuous duty solenoids for plows and winches...

John_Canfield · 06-22-2008, 10:58 AM

Tim - be sure you check the specs before you let them sell you one.

Harry B · 06-22-2008, 11:28 AM

The specs for your contactor is at the folowing link.

Part # Breakdown

At this link are the elctrical specs

electrical specs

tderonne · 06-22-2008, 02:21 PM

They had an 80 amp continuous solenoid in stock. That'll work better than the burned up piece I took out. 80 amp won't be enough to start it from the coach batteries if the chassis battery is dead, but should be enough to keep the coach batteries charged on the road. Think I'll go ahead and add a resistor to drop the coil voltage a little. I can keep that when I replace this solenoid with the right, long term solution down the road. Too many other projects to spend more time on this one right now.

tderonne · 06-23-2008, 04:59 AM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Harry B:
Does anyone know where the control logic is physically located for the Trombetta relay?

There has to be some form of control that causes the relay to engage once the alternator starts charging. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I rereading this whole thread as I work out what resistor I need, I realized no one answered Harry's question.

The relay is simply powered when the ignition switch is in the run position (but not in start).

The Napa part I got has a coil resistance of 17 ohms. Some quick math says a 5 ohm resistor to drop the voltage from 14 to 10.8. Now to find one... (should be easy).

John_Canfield · 06-23-2008, 05:29 AM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by tderonne:
--snip--The relay is simply powered when the ignition switch is in the run position (but not in start).--snip-- </div></BLOCKQUOTE>That makes sense - the "boost" switch and the ignition switch wiring are in the same general area.

I saw Harry's question, but I didn't know the answer

and I was too lazy to look at the wiring diagram.

Harry B · 06-23-2008, 08:09 AM

Tim,

Thanks for the reply to my question. I tried tracing it as John indicated but gave up in frustration and thought someone had the answer.

This type of activation means that anytime the ignition key in in the "Run" position the chassis and house batteries are connected in parallel. Even when the engine is not running. Interersting

I have ordered the Blue Sea Systems contactor This one for replacement. Being as you stated that the existing system has no sensing circuit it will make it easy to connect this contactor to the existing wiring. Thanks for the help.

Gary CA · 06-26-2008, 11:20 AM

Good discussion/education on solenoids (tie contractor). I contacted Jay at MurCal electronics 800-321-8386. Jay called Trombetta and verified the replacement for the OEM solenoid; that operates at 14V.

I ordered the 114-1211-020 (silver contacts), for $30, and will keep it as a spare.

http://www.trombetta.com/dc-contactor-products.cfm?id=8

http://shopping.murcal.com/Welcome

SCVJeff · 06-26-2008, 12:57 PM

Gary, Does it operate continuous at 14V? From the motorhome in the background it would appear that this is the target market, and we all know a 12V coil doesn't last.

edit: Found it (?) Is that the 4th item down the list?

Gary CA · 06-26-2008, 01:09 PM

Jeff~
I was told continous 14V.
Trombetta 114-1211-020 (2nd one listed); MurCal is located in Palmdale, pretty close to you.

porscheracer · 06-26-2008, 08:37 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by cbeierl:
On my Vectra you can check the house battery voltage at the OnePlace panel while the engine is running--it should be at the alternator output voltage of 14+/- volts, the same as the chassis batteries. If it isn't then presumably the solenoid isn't working. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Ours failed on our Vectra 36RD, and the only symptom was that the house batteries didn't charge from the alternator.

The main gripe I had was that it was non-functional from delivery (the coach was a true factory demo - 10K miles with an MSO). I asked at the dealership and was told the house batteries weren't supposed to charge off the generator - because it couldn't handle the load. By the time they decided we really had a problem, it was out of warranty.

Harry B · 06-26-2008, 10:51 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">was told the house batteries weren't supposed to charge off the generator </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

This is a true statementfor except it has nothing to do with the generator not being able to handle the load. This applies to most coaches except some DP starting in 2006.

This relay or contactor we have been discussing only functions when the ignition key is on and hopefully the engine is running.

When you are charging your batteries using the generator, the inverter/charger comes into play and will only charge the house batteries unless a Trik-L-Start or Echo charger is installed.

cbeierl · 06-27-2008, 04:11 AM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Harry B:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">was told the house batteries weren't supposed to charge off the generator </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

This is a true statementfor except it has nothing to do with the generator not being able to handle the load. This applies to most coaches except some DP starting in 2006.

This relay or contactor we have been discussing only functions when the ignition key is on and hopefully the engine is running.

When you are charging your batteries using the generator, the inverter/charger comes into play and will only charge the house batteries unless a Trik-L-Start or Echo charger is installed. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Just so that nobody's confused, the above quotes are referring to the 'chassis' or 'engine' batteries not being charged by the generator in the absence of the Trik-L-Start or equivalent. The 'house' or 'coach' batteries are of course charged via the inverter/charger from shore power or the generator. When the engine is running or the 'boost' switch is engaged the 'house/coach' batteries will be charged by the alternator via the solenoid in question.

porscheracer · 06-28-2008, 05:42 PM

My error in my post. We were told the house batteries were not supposed to charge off the alternator. I knew what I was saying, just used the wrong term. Sorry.

One additional indication that the relay was defective was that with different states of charge on the chassis and house batteries, you could press the battery boost switch, and it made no difference in the voltages.

Harry B · 06-28-2008, 06:41 PM

Norm,

You're right, it wasn't or isn't working. Perhaps Winnebago should make it mandatory for dealers to follow these forums, so they can learn how the products they sell and are supposed to support really do work. I haven't experienced support from a dealer yet that impressed me.

On the other hand maybe that is not a good idea. I like how this forum currently works.

Is the relay/contactor on your coach working now?

porscheracer · 06-28-2008, 07:10 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Is the relay/contactor on your coach working now? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Perfectly! The house batteries charge off the alternator, and you can see a voltage change on the battery monitors when you press the boost switch.

n2xyz · 07-08-2008, 05:00 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by John_Canfield:
We have now had our second or third failure of the battery bank bridging solenoid. This is the solenoid that energizes when you are running the engine to charge both battery banks, and energizes when you operate the "Battery Boost" switch.

I don't know why we have had so many failures, but I am about ready to yank it out and install a diode isolator (no moving parts!)

The disadvantage of the isolator is no more battery boost switch (unless I add that back in) and the diodes have a 1.2 volt voltage across them which will be manifested as heat (if 50 amps are passing through one diode to charge a bank, you have 60 watts that need to be dissipated.) </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

bcovey · 07-11-2008, 10:07 AM

I have another source for you, Diesel Equipment Co.of Greensboro, NC. They are a supplier to Tiffin. Their website is diesel equipment.com and I had the same failure on our 2006 Tiffin Allegro. I have since insulated the back wall of the electrical compartment where the DC board is mounted due to the heat buildup that I think is due to it's close proximity to the engine/exhaust/transmission.

John_Canfield · 07-11-2008, 10:18 AM

Thanks for that information

Winnebago mounts ours in an enclosed box - you have given me an idea about venting the box. Now that I have forced air ventilation for the bay, I could get some good airflow in that enclosed space.

I don't think we have lots of collateral heat from the engine area but we were getting quite a heat build-up from the inverter operation while on the road.

Harry B · 07-11-2008, 03:11 PM

John,

I am in the process of installing a 3 inch fan in the top of the electrical compartment. Much the same idea as you already implemented. I am connecting the fan to a 104 degree thermal switch that opens again at 84 degrees. I have to hurry up and finish it, as we are leaving next week for a couple of months.

I thought that the wall I wanted to mount it on (the same as the inverter) would come out in the engine compartment. So prior to drilling holes I was inspecting the area that I wanted to mount the fan on and found out that there is about a 2 inch cavity between the engine and electrical compartment that vents out on to the street below. So the exhaust fan will blow into this cavity that in turn blows it onto the street below. This precludes any possibility of getting water into the electrical compartment. It pulls in fresh air from the openings that electrical cables enter the compartment .

You might want to look at this construction if you are looking at creating a flow through system as you mentioned.