2005 Voyage Tail Lights Question

[Hilly]

On my 2005 Voyage, I have the red tail and stop lights. Orange for blinkers. When the brakes are applied, the red brake lights as well as the orange turn signals come on. It seems odd that the turn signals come on as well with the brakes??? If a turn signal is on at that time it does flash. Otherwise it's solid turn signals along with the brake lights. Can anybody confirm what their lighting does??

Thanks a lot!!

Mike

[FIRE UP]

Originally Posted by Hilly

On my 2005 Voyage, I have the red tail and stop lights. Orange for blinkers. When the brakes are applied, the red brake lights as well as the orange turn signals come on. It seems odd that the turn signals come on as well with the brakes??? If a turn signal is on at that time it does flash. Otherwise it's solid turn signals along with the brake lights. Can anybody confirm what their lighting does??

Thanks a lot!!

Mike

Mike,
At this time, about the only explanation I can give you, based on your explanation of how it works, is that, it's possible that maybe an "amber" lens was installed when it should have been a red one. There are many coaches out there with multiple red, running, brake and turn lights. Yes, there are many also that utilize the amber ones for turn only. But, as you most likely already know, the ambers operate totally independent of the reds. They never have the same function, at the same time, as in both blink for turn or both bright for brake lights.

But, as I understand it, Don't quote me here but, it is illegal for "Amber" lights to be used as brake lights here in the U.S. Again, I've only "heard" this, I don't have a basis in writing from anything. I would, just for my own education, like to find that if, it's true. But at least based on your description of it's operation, it does sound to me that someone installed the wrong lens. Do your tail lights look like the ones in the photo below?
Scott

[Hilly]

Thanks Scott,

That looks identical to my tail lights. I should add that mine is a 2006. Little typo on the 1st post.

I checked this morning and the upper and lower red areas both light with the headlights on. The lower portion has a dual element bulb which lights when the brakes are applied.

The clear middle has an amber light for turn signals. These are the lights that also come on with the brake lights.

Just seems strange to me.

Mike

[Rockwood27]

I have an '06 Itasca 35A with what looks like the same tail lights. Under the rear bumper, near the trailer hitch, is an electronic converter for the trailer connector. The converter changes the separate brake/signal lights of the MH into the one function for a trailer. You should check to see if the converter is malfunctioning (maybe plug in a trailer/toad) and back-feeding to the MH tail lights.

BTW, you should change your signature if you really have an '06 Winnie!!

[Hilly]

Well first of all I guess I need to decide what year this thing is!!! I had 06 on my brain for some reason.. It is an 05. Double checked it even. Thanks for fixing me on that!

I don't have any electronic device on mine in back? When I bought it there had been some work done back there by the previous owner. None of the trailer connections worked right. I made it work with my trailers but maybe I am sending power to the signals and need to replace the converter. Is there a PN or name for this part?

I did get a call from Winnebago this morning and he said it is likely a short. Didn't say anything about a converter though.

Thanks for giving me something to look for though!

Mike

[FIRE UP]

Originally Posted by Hilly

Well first of all I guess I need to decide what year this thing is!!! I had 06 on my brain for some reason.. It is an 05. Double checked it even. Thanks for fixing me on that!

I don't have any electronic device on mine in back? When I bought it there had been some work done back there by the previous owner. None of the trailer connections worked right. I made it work with my trailers but maybe I am sending power to the signals and need to replace the converter. Is there a PN or name for this part?

I did get a call from Winnebago this morning and he said it is likely a short. Didn't say anything about a converter though.

Thanks for giving me something to look for though!

Mike

Mike,
No, your amber colored turn signals are not supposed to come on with the brake lights. So, yes you are having a malfunction in some portion of the system. Now, just where, well that will have to be determined. And, if you do have what's called a "Tail light converter" in the rear, just prior to the trailer plug, it's rare but, yes it can be malfunctioning. So, let's analyze some things here. First, when running lights are turned on, do all of them function correctly? You should not see any running lights in the amber turn signal area.

Second, I've not seen a coach with your tail light arrangement up close so, if you say the bulb in the center is amber, in the clear lens, then, where's the "backup" lights, I don't see any?

Next, do any of the red lights light up when the turn signals are activated? And, is there anything odd when the four-way flashers are activated? Now, when it comes to tracking shorts, it's usually a pain in the a$$. But, one thing here, do check all grounds in the tail light area. Grounds, or I should say "bad" grounds are a know cause of light problems since Henry Ford was hanging around. All kinds of things happen, (that aren't supposed to) when bad grounds are present.

Now, as another poster stated, you may have that tail light converter in your system, just prior to the trailer plug. On coaches with amber turn signals, many coach builders automatically install these tail light converters because many toads are not using the amber turn signals and, trailers too. That little black box, usually about 2"x3"x1/2" thick, plus or minus some, is a neat little mini-computer that, takes in signals, like an amber turn and a red brake light, and converts it to a single wire on the other side or, output side as a "combo" signal wire. Now, when wiring a toad or a trailer, all you have to deal with is one wire per side, besides the running lights.

So, if, by chance that little black box is throwing fits and causing issues, then a simple test would be to eliminate it, temporarily. Just cut the wires, unless it's got connectors that can be un done. By disconnecting that little converter, it will not effect the operation of the tail lights on your coach, unless it's shorted out and, in which case, you might see an improvement in how they work, as in NO ambers coming on with the brake light application.

It would be rare if the short, or problem with your system originates from the front of the coach but, not un heard of. So, if it were me, I'd start with a good inspection of the wiring area in and around that trailer plug or, simply remove an entire tail light housing and try to follow the wires to a point at an intersection for your trailer plug. Just some suggestions.
Scott

[Hilly]

Thanks for the info Scott!
The backup light is also in the clear area next to the amber bulb.

I can't say for sure about the flashers right now. Will check them tonight.

I do know that when I bought this 1.5 years ago, there was a six pin trailer connection with several of the wires cut behind the bumper. I figured out their function and installed a 7 pin to match my trailers. Trailer lighting works fine.

I wonder if where the wires were cut, there may have been a converter and the re-wiring I've done has caused the malfunction on the rv. If that is the case, I'll have to find a wiring diagram to reinstall it. I went to the Winnebago site with all the schematics but they did not show this "magic box" in the drawings.

Thanks for the good info guys. I'll dig into it and post back what I find.

Mike

[Hilly]

I found this little device last night in a box of misc parts that came with the rv. Could be that it was originally hooked up where I found the cut wires by the hitch?

[Hilly]

Sorry, tried to upload a picture from my phone and did not succeed. Here's another try with the little device I found.

Mike

[Rockwood27]

Originally Posted by Hilly

I found this little device last night in a box of misc parts that came with the rv. Could be that it was originally hooked up where I found the cut wires by the hitch?

We need a picture of it, but...if it has about 5-6 wires on one end and 4 on the other, then yes. It should be about 2 inches x 3 inches x 1/2 inch thick.

Fran

[FIRE UP]

Originally Posted by Hilly

Sorry, tried to upload a picture from my phone and did not succeed. Here's another try with the little device I found.

Mike

Mike,
Well Sir, that's most likely what "was" installed in your RV, at one time or another. Yes, that's a "Tail light converter". It's the version called: A three wire to two wire converter. As explained earlier, it converts the "independent turn signals, separate from the RV brake light signal, and combines them on the other side of the box, to send out a "Combination" brake and turn light wire for each side.

Now, assuming that was in your coach wiring, and assuming that you may have "combined" the turn signal and brake light wires in behind that trailer plug, you may have found your problem.

Now, the question is, why in the world would someone (AKA the previous owner) have cut that tail light converter out of the system and, just left the wires dangling??? Why not just leave it in there and do it's job. Now, if there's some sort of malfunction inside that little box than, replace it, don't just cut it out and leave the wires

So, here's a thought. Not knowing if that converter is functioning correctly, I'd simply order up a new one from etrailer.com or, find a local place of your choice and purchase the same unit. Then, remove all the wires from your 7 pin trailer plug, label all of them for function, tie in that new converter to the appropriate wires, then, put the output wires into the back of that 7 pin connector.

I'd bet my house your problem with your tail lights will be gone. Let us know how it comes out.
Scott

[Sammie]

Mike, as FIRE UP has already mentioned, the taillight converter box was probably installed at one time by the previous owner for towing whatever he was towing. Who knows why he disconnected it. Maybe he started towing something else that didn't need the converter. I have installed that particular converter on several motorhomes for friends and myself and they work great for the intended purpose but they can go bad like anything else.

Good Luck
Sammie

[Hilly]

Well I thought I should update this as it might help somebody else out and save them quite a few headaches!! It's been a cold, long, cold, busy winter but I finally got around to fixing this issue of tail lights coming on with the brake lights.

This could just as well go in the Workhorse form too.

It turns out there was no issue at all in the tail light wiring causing the turn signals to light with the brakes applied.....

What it is, is an option that Workhorse built into the chassis to allow the use of the "older" tail lights where the turn signal filament is actually the brake light filament as well, or to use the "newer" style where there is actually a separate bulb for each.

I finally found this when I had the drivers tail light out and sitting on the ground facing the front. When I pressed the brake pedal the turn signal would light up just before the brake light. I could even make just the turn signal come on without the brake lights by holding the pedal steady. Turns out there are 2 contacts for the brake lights in the switch at the pedal.

The white wire on the brake pedal switch was turning on my turn signals. I followed it about a foot and found a connector. Disconnect that and problem solved.... The connector is installed by Workhorse to allow the use of either style of tail lights. According to the diagram this will not affect anything else. We'll see for sure once it warms up.

I did have some help from a great guy at Navistar (Workhorse) through this. He gave me quite a few things to look at including the electrical diagrams for the chassis. He said it's possible the rv was in for some other issue and somebody saw the wire disconnected and re connected it. Maybe it's been like this since new??

Either way, it's good to have this nagging issue behind me!!!!

Mike

[FIRE UP]

Mike,
Outstanding Partner. Glad you got it straightened out. It's always nice to get an electrical problem solved and things working correctly. Nice work.
Scott