LCI Leveling System blowing 200A fuse

[Tallman54]

Hello:

My 2015 Brave 27B is equipped with Lippert's 8,000 lb jacks and Lippert's auto leveling system. Three weeks ago while attempting to auto-level at what appeared to be a level campsite, the auto leveling system struggled to level without raising both front tires off the ground. After 1 hr of fighting with the system and employing wooden blocks under the wheels and certain jacks, I finally accepted the result, but felt very uncomfortable with any wheels being off of the ground.

When I returned home, I parked in my driveway, initiated an auto level sequence, which was quickly successful and I was able to retract the jacks with no problems.

A few days later, after another auto level sequence, upon attempting a retract, I received a low voltage message on my Lippert controller. After much web surfing, I thankfully found a video which explained the location of the leveling system fuse (125A), which a voltmeter verified had blown.

I replaced the fuse and the system began operating normally again.

A blown 125A fuse bothered me as this clearly signals some other issue.

I called Lippert and their tech support encouraged me to ensure all of my batteries are good (all new within the past year). I subsequently purchased a Schumacher battery tester and verified all batteries (both voltage and load). Lippert also suggested I recalibrate the zero point (last fall my local service center replaced a leaking hydraulic fitting on my front passenger jack... I do not know if they recalibrated as I didn't know to ask at that time) (Subsequent to this repair, my wife was able to successfully employ auto leveling a few months ago while boondocking on a soggy, grassy field, without the use of any blocks or ramps).

With this new knowledge, I revisited the electrical schematics and noticed a 200A fuse is specified where I found the 125A fuse. I called Winnebago's tech support and was assured it should be a 200A fuse. The Tech also assured me it is never advisable for any wheel to be off the ground after leveling.

Armed with all of this knowledge, yesterday I replaced the 125A fuse with a 200A fuse, then began a manual leveling sequence to ensure I would be able to recalibrate the leveling system.

I was able to make numerous manual adjustments of the levelers, including restarting the sequence (my driveway is very level and I felt I was introducing too much jack extension). After three restart cycles (to try and minimize the jack extension I introduced through the manual sequence), (I turned off the control panel each time to initiate a Retract sequence), when I turned the control panel on again, much to my surprise the Low Voltage message appeared once again!

I immediately pulled the 200A fuse and confirmed it was now blown! This outcome has me very worried that another more serious issue is lurking within my leveling system. I should also mention, last year after acquiring our Brave, we camped several times, always using auto leveling with no issues, plus I have utilized it several times in our driveway, again with no issues, until the past three weeks.

The hydraulic fluid reservoir is mounted behind the leveling system pump and motor, and oddly the fill port appears to be on the side (not the top), thus making it very difficult to determine if the fluid level is sufficient? (The tank is made from white, opaque, plastic further complicating my ability to see the fluid level).

I was planning to apply dry silicon lube to my jacks once the zero point calibration was completed (they don't appear to be dirty, but perhaps one or more of them is binding during operation?).

There seems to be very little information on this topic that I have been able to find using Google or this website. As noted above, the suggestions offered by both Lippert and Winnebago have not eliminated the problem. Therefore I decided to turn to this website hoping one of the more experienced members can offer me some guidance... please!

[Morich]

Two things jump out at me!
First is the location of the fluid port as I suspect you are not actually finding the correct place and need to check the top sidecloser! I also made the mistake of using the one I found first! Check the top side closer, perhaps?
Did the place where you checked have a cover with a dipstick attached? That would indicate the wrong place!
Second is to ask if you are starting the RV engine when using the leveling as that is the way to make sure there is enough power to let the motor run without struggle. Low voltage often means high current and that would help to explain the fuse blowing.

Of course there is a chance there is also another problem with something like bad bearings in the pump motor but I would want to check the two easy ones first.

[Tallman54]

Hi, Richard:

Thanks for your prompt response. Sorry, I should have included: the engine is always running when I level (and also when extending the slideout).

Thanks also for the tip re: fluid reservoir. I did find a cap on the top, but it is in an awkward position (minimal clearance) and seems to be very tight. Is this reservoir under pressure?

I also just revisited my invoice for the replacement of the hydraulic fitting... 2 (quarts?) of ATF fluid were utilized, in addition to replacing the fitting, but there is no mention of recalibration.

David

[Morich]

No the tank is not under pressure but finding the top plug is going to be important for getting the level correct. I've forgotten how it was stated in the book but having it level with the opening on the side does leave it down quite a lot from the opening at the top.

My first go at checking the level was a mess as I opened the side and that let tons of fluid run down my arm! Opening the top let me fill the tank almost all the way full to the top opening and it did make a big difference.
My big advantage on spotting what I did wrong was that it worked until I checked the fluid and not when I got done! Whoops!

I think there is a rubber O-ring seal on the plug which does make it hard to turn to get out.

On my RV, the fluid tank was just inside a flap on the side and when I opened the flap, almost the first thing I saw was the plug in the side, so I did not look further but when I got done filling to the side opening, the jacks would go up but not down!
Correct top plug was much harder to find than the wrong side opening plug!

If the engine running is okay, then I might have to fall back to it being a matter of the pump not able to get "quite" enough fluid to build the pressure needed and that may have made it run much longer and possibly draw more current.

But it is also true that a 150-200 or more fuse is a big current to be drawing and I'm not sure what that may mean?? I think of those big mega fuses to be to protect us just short of disaster like in wrecks, etc.

I don't thnk the fluid, fitting etc. will effect the calibration as that is more a setting of a type of level, set inside the coach. I have in mind something like a ball bearing that rolls left/right forward and back to sense the RV level at the point where the gizmo is setting. Kind of like the small bubble levels only mechanics instead of a bubble?
If memory is correct, you go through using a level set inside and then when you have the RV level as you feel right, set the controls to go to that point any time you want to relevel.
I don't think the fluid will have any effect on that part.
The calibration tells the controls where you want level to be while the fluid is just doing the heavy lifting to get it there!

The charge for the fluid they added is due to losing that amount when they open the lines to replace the fitting? The part that runs down their sleeve!

Sometimes I get the feeling we call experts and they have no real ideas, so send us on goose chases!!!

[Tallman54]

Richard:

Thanks again for the prompt response.

I agree with the need to utilize the top cap on the fluid reservoir... and per my Lippert manual, the reservoir needs to be filled to within 1/4-1/2" of the top. I have also noticed a bit of what appears to be fluid on certain of the hydraulic lines near the pump and motor... not sure if this is due to leaks, or perhaps residual fluid which was blown onto the lines after the fluid was added by the service tech last Fall? I want to know the fluid level is correct if only to eliminate another possible cause fo the fuse blowing, so I will have to try again to open that reservoir.. at least now I know it is not under pressure... thank you!

Since the repair last Fall, I have also noticed I almost always receive a "Jacks Down" signal on my dash indicator and on the Lippert controller (when it is powered on) when starting my engine. The jacks appear to be fully-retracted (visually), and a Retract command usually only takes a few seconds to complete (unlike when the jacks are actually extended). This further suggests perhaps the fluid level is not sufficient (per the Lippert manual).

Re: experts... if the local service shop didn't charge $159/hr labor, I would just let them handle this, but at that price, I am willing to spend my own time to sort this out (plus I learn what I may need to know if on the road somewhere and experience this issue again...).

Thanks so much for your help, I truly appreciate it!

David

[Morich]

FYI as part of the learning cure?
The jacks down is really not sensing the jack location but a level sensor in the tank! If the jacks are down, they have drawn more fluid out of the tank, so the design thought is that if the level is low, the jacks must be down!!
One of the questions we get occasionally is what makes the jacks down light come on when cornering! Going around a corner like an interstate loop, can make the fluid move away from the sensor and bring on the light.

It can get scary when you are running in heavy traffic and get an alarm that the jacks are going down!!

[Tallman54]

I am sure that must be very scary!

It would be great to understand where that sensor resides inside the reservoir? I haven't seen any reference to this within the Lippert docs which came with my motorhome. If it is located near the top, that might explain the "jacks down" message I am experiencing, which when I retract, I assume, creates some pressure within the system, which would perhaps satisfy the level sensor (if the level is only slightly lower than it should be).

Owning an RV makes every day like Easter... you have to go on an extended hunt to find the "reward" (i.e. solution)... !

[Morich]

I never saw the level but it works as if it is just a float switch somewhere near the top. As the jacks extend, fluid is pulled out of the tank into the lines and then as they retract, that fluid is pumped back into the tank!

This is one that came up in a quickie search:
https://www.rvupgradestore.com/Lippe...-p/94-1232.htm

[Tallman54]

Richard

Thanks again for your response.

I have finally been able to remove the cap on the top of the reservoir, and much to my surprise, there is not even a drop of hydraulic fluid on the dipstick (which extends at least 2" into the reservoir)! I now believe I found the root cause. I won't have time until Tuesday to add more fluid and test my conclusion. (This revelation also seems to explain why I am experiencing the "jacks down" message when starting my motorhome... which also started after I had the service on the hydraulic leak last Fall.)

I researched the float sensor you sent and it appears my system relies upon a pressure switch as I can find no evidence of a float switch (or any other sensor) located within the reservoir.

I do not have any leaks on my driveway where I park my Brave, and I do not see any evidence of fluid covering the lines, jacks, etc, so I can only conclude during the service, they failed to completely refill the hydraulic fluid... at least they eliminated the leak, but for $250 I expect the work to be done correctly!!!

I am also assuming, with such little fluid in the hydraulic system, the pump may be running over temp, thus causing the high amperage fuses to blow. Hopefully I have not caused any other damage to the hydraulic system...

Your inputs most certainly helped me troubleshoot my problem, for which I am very grateful, thank you!

David

[Morich]

Sounds like a place to start. As mentioned, I never saw the sensor, just learned to keep it topped off more so I didn't have tolook for it!

[Bones2003]

I really hate where they located the cap on the top of the tank in the most inaccessible spot possible! On mine, I can't fit a funnel in there to pour in new fluid from the bottle. I tried one of those fluid transfer pumps from Harbor Freight but that was just as messy. I ended up just using a very small plastic cup to fill the tank a little bit at a time. A 1/4" to 1/2" from the top is correct. Also be sure to check the level with the jacks fully retracted.

Since you need to add that much fluid, I suggest you run the jacks up and down a couple of times then recheck the fluid level. The jacks are self bleeding so that should get rid of any air in the lines.

[Tallman54]

UPDATE:

Just to inform anyone else who may be experiencing this issue, much to my surprise (and horror), I discovered my hydraulic reservoir required just over 2.5 quarts of fluid to refill it! I am amazed my jacks worked at all, but now understand why the fuse kept blowing. I am also pissed as it now appears the service tech (at a Winnebago dealer no less) failed to fully replenish the fluid after he replaced the fitting last Fall.

Lessons: (1) If any work is performed on the leveling jacks (which have auto-leveling), make certain the calibration was reset after the work was completed, (2) ask for evidence the fluid reservoir was topped off, and (3) if "Jacks Down" warning appears after the service was just completed, there may not be sufficient fluid in the reservoir (my mistake was to trust the Service Advisor who told me "you just need to recycle the power on the leveling system control panel" (which admittedly cleared the warning, but it would always reappear each time I started the vehicle, until now).

When I spoke with LCI, they did not mention low fluid as a possible cause of the fuse blowing, so they also apparently assumed the fluid level was fine.

Hopefully this information will help someone else avoid hours of troubleshooting (or being stuck in a remote campsite with no idea why the leveling system is misbehaving).

[IOS 3]

Thanks for taking the time to post the final resolution. Hopefully this chapter is closed for you.

[danhannah]

I wonder if you could share where you found the fuse on your rig, or what internet source had the fuse locations. Thanks!

[Wilmic]

I know it’s been about a year, however we are experiencing similar symptoms with our leveling system blowing the 125a fuse. Going to check the fluid levels again today. Lippert tech support is stuck that it’s a voltage issue. I have my doubts after testing connections with volt meter.
Have you had any more issues over the past year? Thanks.

[Tallman54]

Hi Wilmic

Since topping off the fluid level, I have yet to encounter any additional electrical issues with our leveling system.

[Wilmic]

Thanks for the quick reply. When you were having initial problems, did you ever put a volt meter or clamp on amp meter and take any readings?
When retracting our jacks I see the amps climbing from 60-80 all the way up to 160-180. I’m assuming this is why the 125amp fuse is blowing. Lippert says 60-80 is normal, but I wonder if it’s normal for it to climb a little more.
Our system worked great for 9 years and then something changed about a month ago. Still trying to figure out what?

[Tallman54]

Sorry, but no, I never measured the amperage. Once I realized the fuse was supposed to be 200A per the schematic, inserting the proper size solved the problem. As for why the current is spiking, if the fluid level is low, the pump will have to run longer and the system will have to work harder, so it makes sense to me for the current to increase. For sure if you are seeing >125A, that fuse is going to blow. Have you been able to verify the fluid level?

[Wilmic]

I did verify fluid level being at the top filler cap. So, are you saying you have a 200amp fuse in place? If so, I’m going to change out the 125a to a 200a and that should solve the issue. Although it’d be confusing as to why it worked on a 125a for 9 years with no problems?!

[Wilmic]

I just chatted with Winnebago and they stated it was ok for the 200a instead of 125a, so my plan is to change it out now. Still confused though as to why it was good for so long? I’ve checked/cleaned all my grounds and do not see anything obvious. Thanks for your time.