Class C With Ford V10?

[Ret.LEO]

Hi,
Just learning getting ready to buy our 1st Class C. What didn't you like about the Ford V-10?
Thanks for your thoughts

[gliderpilot]

Well its a Ford, I have owned 3 fords in my life
and will never own another. Buy what YOU like though.

And if you get a ford be prepared for 6 to 7 mpg.

[Coffie Drink]

I own a 15 View G. If you buy a View, you will need to upgrade the suspension. They are heavy and need help, Fox Shocks from Algile Off-road for the rear. Hellwig roll bar and Sumo Springs.
The View G is heavy, WGO does a good job with weight compaired to others. The Mercedes cab has much better room compaired to the Ford E450. Fuel is about double with Ford. Some saving with service for Ford, but you need to service the Ford twice a year. Your Sprinter is two years from when the cab was driven to WGO and once a year or 20 K.
My view has great power, I tow a Ford Fiesta in the mountains in the PNW, 13.5 to 14 Towing. 15,16 without the car.
The Sprinter is a two person rig, the Ford is much better for families.
Driving the View is better than the Ford. The passinger side has no foot room and the driver side is cramped. It suffers with that big V10 stuffed into the cab. Climb into a View and see how much room.
Resell is better with a View. TCO is higher with the View.

[akeagle]

Of all the vehicles I've owned over the years, only two were not Fords. My Ford experience has been very good. The V-10 in our E450 is an absolute workhorse!

[Ret.LEO]

Originally Posted by akeagle

Of all the vehicles I've owned over the years, only two were not Fords. My Ford experience has been very good. The V-10 in our E450 is an absolute workhorse!

My best friend has been a Ford Dealership's Service Manager for years before going out on his own. He is a Ford man through and through............he says the E-450, F-450 with the V10 is one of the best engines ever developed. Said to forget about a Diesel............stay V10

[Winterbagoal]

Originally Posted by Ret.LEO

Hi,
Just learning getting ready to buy our 1st Class C. What didn't you like about the Ford V-10?
Thanks for your thoughts

1) Poor fuel economy. Anyone who tells you they're getting 8-10 on it, is driving in perfect conditions, downhill, with a tail wind. I know, I had one. Plug in a scan tool with live/real time/instantaneous fuel mileage stats, and you'll see. I average around 15 mpg in my Navion under most driving conditions. If I set my dash fuel economy display on, and leave it alone for a few days, it will read between 15 and 16 L/100KM. That averages out to about 15 mpg. That's easily twice or more what my Sunstar averaged, and it had the 3 valve V10 with the 6 speed transmission w/tow/haul. When diesel hits double the price of gasoline, it will be a saw off for fuel economy between the MB 3.0L V6 and the Ford 6.8L V10.
2) Noise. The V10 is between you and the passenger, under a doghouse usually, and they are loud. The problem with the V10 is that in order to use all that extra power, on an uphill climb, or under hard acceleration, the engine has to be at or above 3000 rpm for HP and 4000 rpm for torque. That's leaf blower country. I know, I had one. My Navion does uphills much better and at lower RPMs, between 1400-2400 max torque/HP, and the engine is forward of the passenger compartment, behind the firewall. Much quieter.
3) The doghouse gets in the way. All the time, when getting into either front seat from inside the vehicle. I know, I had one. See 2) for where my current engine sits. Some will say it's not a problem for them. That's fine. I just didn't like it.
4) Over time the repair and maintenance costs are about the same. On the Ford, things might cost less, but you do them more often. It's as simple as that.

Honestly, I was a Ford guy until I tried the Navion with the diesel. Now, I don't think I'd ever go back. It's just that much better for us/me.

[Ret.LEO]

Originally Posted by Winterbagoal

1) Poor fuel economy. Anyone who tells you they're getting 8-10 on it, is driving in perfect conditions, downhill, with a tail wind. I know, I had one. Plug in a scan tool with live/real time/instantaneous fuel mileage stats, and you'll see. I average around 15 mpg in my Navion under most driving conditions. If I set my dash fuel economy display on, and leave it alone for a few days, it will read between 15 and 16 L/100KM. That averages out to about 15 mpg. That's easily twice or more what my Sunstar averaged, and it had the 3 valve V10 with the 6 speed transmission w/tow/haul. When diesel hits double the price of gasoline, it will be a saw off for fuel economy between the MB 3.0L V6 and the Ford 6.8L V10.
2) Noise. The V10 is between you and the passenger, under a doghouse usually, and they are loud. The problem with the V10 is that in order to use all that extra power, on an uphill climb, or under hard acceleration, the engine has to be at or above 3000 rpm for HP and 4000 rpm for torque. That's leaf blower country. I know, I had one. My Navion does uphills much better and at lower RPMs, between 1400-2400 max torque/HP, and the engine is forward of the passenger compartment, behind the firewall. Much quieter.
3) The doghouse gets in the way. All the time, when getting into either front seat from inside the vehicle. I know, I had one. See 2) for where my current engine sits. Some will say it's not a problem for them. That's fine. I just didn't like it.
4) Over time the repair and maintenance costs are about the same. On the Ford, things might cost less, but you do them more often. It's as simple as that.

Honestly, I was a Ford guy until I tried the Navion with the diesel. Now, I don't think I'd ever go back. It's just that much better for us/me.

Thanks, all very good points.
I just wish the Sprinter style Class C's were a larger Coach. It will be my wife, myself and two Golden Retrievers living in it for two or three weeks at a time, could get a bit crowded
I agree that the Diesel economy would be sweet PLUS just the sound of a turbo is addictive.........drove semi's for 20 years before going to the Sheriff's academy. Love the sound of a Diesel wraping out.
I have had discussions with my best friend gas vs diesel. He is a long time Ford Service Manager who went out on his own. Of course He is 100% Ford V-10. Reasons He gives is that it's one of the best gas engines ever made, very capable of matching a Diesel's longevity. If there is ever a problem any Ford Dealer can work on it or a independent repair shop (who's willing to get past the MH size) I know from 1st hand experience if you do need work on the Diesel a truck repair shop's labor rate is much more than a general repair shop. Dan also brought up if the worst did happen and a engine rebuild or swap with the V-10 would probably be 1/2 the price of the Diesel.
I fully agree about the doghouse and noise. That V-10 is a hard working engine that likes to growl and it's right next to you

I intend to test drive both, if we can get past the smaller size we will quite possibly go the Sprinter. It really depends what my wife likes the best. She's a farm Girl and use to operate our gas and diesel farm tractors so She knows the benefits and disadvantages to both engines.

[jcurtisis]

Originally Posted by Ret.LEO

Thanks, all very good points.
I just wish the Sprinter style Class C's were a larger Coach. It will be my wife, myself and two Golden Retrievers living in it for two or three weeks at a time, could get a bit crowded
I agree that the Diesel economy would be sweet PLUS just the sound of a turbo is addictive.........drove semi's for 20 years before going to the Sheriff's academy. Love the sound of a Diesel wraping out.
I have had discussions with my best friend gas vs diesel. He is a long time Ford Service Manager who went out on his own. Of course He is 100% Ford V-10. Reasons He gives is that it's one of the best gas engines ever made, very capable of matching a Diesel's longevity. If there is ever a problem any Ford Dealer can work on it or a independent repair shop (who's willing to get past the MH size) I know from 1st hand experience if you do need work on the Diesel a truck repair shop's labor rate is much more than a general repair shop. Dan also brought up if the worst did happen and a engine rebuild or swap with the V-10 would probably be 1/2 the price of the Diesel.
I fully agree about the doghouse and noise. That V-10 is a hard working engine that likes to growl and it's right next to you

I intend to test drive both, if we can get past the smaller size we will quite possibly go the Sprinter. It really depends what my wife likes the best. She's a farm Girl and use to operate our gas and diesel farm tractors so She knows the benefits and disadvantages to both engines.

Ret.LEO:
Good idea to test drive both. If space is your main issue, I submit that the 24D has the most “open space” while camping, and there is a couch (!!) when the slider is in and you are driving. We held 4 kids and 4 adults in a trip from CA to MN without space issues (at night we sent them into a hotel ... as my uncle said: “regardless of the size, any RV only sleeps 2). Happy Trails!

[Winterbagoal]

Originally Posted by Ret.LEO

Thanks, all very good points.
I just wish the Sprinter style Class C's were a larger Coach. It will be my wife, myself and two Golden Retrievers living in it for two or three weeks at a time, could get a bit crowded
I agree that the Diesel economy would be sweet PLUS just the sound of a turbo is addictive.........drove semi's for 20 years before going to the Sheriff's academy. Love the sound of a Diesel wraping out.
I have had discussions with my best friend gas vs diesel. He is a long time Ford Service Manager who went out on his own. Of course He is 100% Ford V-10. Reasons He gives is that it's one of the best gas engines ever made, very capable of matching a Diesel's longevity. If there is ever a problem any Ford Dealer can work on it or a independent repair shop (who's willing to get past the MH size) I know from 1st hand experience if you do need work on the Diesel a truck repair shop's labor rate is much more than a general repair shop. Dan also brought up if the worst did happen and a engine rebuild or swap with the V-10 would probably be 1/2 the price of the Diesel.
I fully agree about the doghouse and noise. That V-10 is a hard working engine that likes to growl and it's right next to you

I intend to test drive both, if we can get past the smaller size we will quite possibly go the Sprinter. It really depends what my wife likes the best. She's a farm Girl and use to operate our gas and diesel farm tractors so She knows the benefits and disadvantages to both engines.

Your points are all valid. The View/Navion does tend to make you a minimalist in some respects, depending on what you're used to. I couldn't beat the storage in the Sunstar, as it's triple what we have in our N24V. The extra space inside was also a big plus. It was roomy, and if that's what feels right for you, then you can't go wrong with a larger coach, A or C. We tried it, and the extra room and amenities were great, but we also found out quickly that those pluses didn't offset some of the negatives we saw in the bigger class A. The service location issue became apparent when the closest Ford dealership that could fit us in, was 60 miles away. We were out at our dealership one day on unrelated business, and that's when we (DW, actually) saw a low profile Navion, and did a quick tour, inside and out, and the dealer let us test drive a class B Sprinter to get a feel for the chassis and diesel. That's when we were sold, and did the deal within a few days. Traded our class A Ford V10 for the Navion. So far, it's been flawless. The Ford V10 was also a flawless performer, but just not our cup of tea, as it turned out, coming from a class B van. We upsized a bit too much as it turned out.

[Morich]

I find the engine, itself is great but the use we get is very much dependant on the rest of the RV. A 2017 Thor 25 foot with V10 was a disgusting event and I traded down to a 2015 Class A winnebago with a V10 and so far I like it very much. If gas is a big issue, one should not consider an RV as it is cheaper to motel!
I've had three V10 and no problems with the engine but some RV drive while others wander like a goat! For more room and comfort, consider moving up to a Class A as there are definite bennies---- like a comfortable place to set? A dinette that sets square up and down is a real drag after a week or so.

[JBP]

I have owned 2 class C with the V10. Both with the 5 speed. The new 6 speed is better. The Cambria 30J was great with 3 slides and the 27K Aspect was very good with less over hang. Both through the mountains pulling a Lincoln MKX. The V 10 did great. Gas milage was about 7.5 running 63 to 65. I saw 9 mpg crossing Kansas with tall wind. Texas hill country with head wing was not quite 7 mpg.
Round trip with 27K from Southern tip of Texas to Denver kansas City and home to Southern Texas was 7.8 MPG pulling Lincoln.
Winne and Ford have improved dog house sound a lot. The last 2015 27K was very nice inside.
Hope this helps.

[AJMike]

Originally Posted by Ret.LEO

Hi,
Just learning getting ready to buy our 1st Class C. What didn't you like about the Ford V-10?
Thanks for your thoughts

I have had 2 RVs with the Ford V10, both older. The first was a 2008 Winnebago Sightseer Class A (bought new), and I got about 8-9 mpg with that, and the second was a 2005 Pleasure-Way Class B (bought used, obviously) and I got about 13.5-14.5 mpg with that. I never had the first bit of trouble with either engine and I personally really like it.

I have a Ford diesel in my current RV and I really like that as well. Some people have bad experiences with Ford engines but I have not.

[DicknPat]

Originally Posted by JBP

Winne and Ford have improved dog house sound a lot. The last 2015 27K was very nice inside.
Hope this helps.

Good to know the sound factor has been improved. Throughout various forums there have been complaints about limited leg room and excessive heat build up on the passenger side. Have these issues been resolved?

The Aspect/Cambria 27K appears to be the ideal size for us. We have a Brand X 38' Class A, which has been fine & comfortable, but we just don't need that large any more......just more potential problems !!

Winnebago makes sense, too, as we live just 70 miles from the factory, plus there are several great Winnebago dealers nearby, which can't be said for Brand X.

[SarahW]

Originally Posted by DicknPat

Good to know the sound factor has been improved. Throughout various forums there have been complaints about limited leg room and excessive heat build up on the passenger side. Have these issues been resolved?

The Aspect/Cambria 27K appears to be the ideal size for us. We have a Brand X 38' Class A, which has been fine & comfortable, but we just don't need that large any more......just more potential problems !!

Winnebago makes sense, too, as we live just 70 miles from the factory, plus there are several great Winnebago dealers nearby, which can't be said for Brand X.

Howdy and welcome. I know what you mean about Brand X; we also have a Class A gasser that we have enjoyed for 7 years. It is "SOB" as is said on iRV2... "some other brand."

Earlier this spring we thought we'd trade for a smaller RV and we shopped several Class Cs. When we heard the trade-in "offers" we quickly decided we'd stick with what we've got for a while longer. Hope you have better luck than we did!!

[Phil G.]

We have a 2005 24V Itasca Spirit E450 with the 5-speed TorqShift transmission and it has been a great small slide-less Class C. Winnebago did a lot of stuff right with it and the Ford V10 4XX series chassis has been outstanding:
- It gets 9-10 MPG.
- The cab floor does not get hot due to heat shields between the exhaust pipes and the cab floor that someone (Ford or Winnebago) installed there.
- If the floor was to get hot, just run the cab air routing to "Mix" and the cab air temperature to "Max A/C". This aims cold air towards the cab floor and your feet.
- The wide rear dually stance of the E450 (wider than the E350 chassis and way wider than the Sprinter chassis) makes for outstanding lateral stability on curves, in high cross winds, and when a truck passes by.
- The V10 can be idled very silently and vibration-free in noise sensitive and shaded camping spots for long periods to charge the coach batteries via it's large alternator ... when solar would not work or the built-in generator would not be quiet enough. (The Sprinter diesel chassis should not be idled for long periods ... unfortunate, since it does have a fairly large alternator.)
- The lower rear differential ratio of the E450 over the E350 makes for great towing torque and slow crawling off-highway torque to boondocking campsites.
- The V10 never overheats pulling up steep grades in the summer with full A/C running.
- The powerfull E350/E450 cab A/C and heating systems can cool or heat the entire interior of a small Class C built on them. This is good for both traveling and for emergency use when camping if the coach A/C or propane furnace should unexpectedly fail.

- I'm 6'2" and can tolerate the driver's seat and foot room for hours on end ... but our coach design is such that the driver's side seatback can be tilted back nicely when traveling. The wife has no problem with the passenger side foot room or seatback tilt-back.
- A full spare tire came from Winnebago mounted up high in the rear between the frame members ... where it should be just like in a pickup truck.

- The large 55 gallon gasoline tank gives the E450 (and on some E350 chassis) more range than the Sprinter diesel chassis, even at the lower MPG of the E350 and E450 V10 as compared to the Sprinter low horsepower diesel engine.
- The E350/E450 chassis can be repaired at far more locations thoughout the U.S. than the Sprinter chassis ... and for less money.
- The E350/E450 chassis fender wells and front steering mechanism leave plenty of room for larger diameter tires if you want to increase the ground clearance of the motorhome for less scrapping in parking lots and less damage potential when camping on rough roads off-highway. We have larger diameter tires on our Itasca Class C.

- Since our 24V Class C weight-wise could actually have been built on an E350 chassis instead of it's E450 chassis, what we wound up with is a huge load carrying capacity. We can load it up fully and with all tanks full, and there is no change in it's handling or driveability or coach front-to-rear levelness. It drives "like a van" at all times because of this chassis overkill (high weight carrying margin relative to the coach it's carrying). This is difficult to achieve with a Sprinter based Class C because there is no 4XXX series Sprinter van chassis available for motorhome builders if they want to offer a larger cargo carrying margin option for potential small Class C buyers.
- Regular gas is easier to find than diesel gas - all things and all areas in the U.S. considered ... not just around towns and cities.
- The Ford TorqueShift tranmission's Tow/Haul mode is really great for controlling uphill shifting and downhill engine braking automatically with just the push of a button ... it is not necessary to manually shift gears at all when going uphill or downhill.


These are just some of the reasons that the Ford E350 and E450 chassis make such a great small to medium size Class C platform. I'll hate so see them go - especially with regards to the E450 weight range in that so far there's not much on the horizon to take it's place in the U.S. for Class C builders. The new small delivery type vans certainly cannot replace the E450. However, the Chevy 3500 and 4500 van chassis are competition for the Ford E350 and E450 van chassis, but I don't know how much longer they will be available, either.

[DicknPat]

Thanks, Phil for a very nice & complete report . I'd say Winnebago is who installed the heat shield, since so many other Class C owners of other brands still complain about the heat issue. We're thinking strong for an Aspect/Cambria, so it's good to know!

[DicknPat]

Thanks for the Welcome, Sarah!!

Hopefully one of our close-by dealers will play fair & get us into a Winnebago.

HAPPY THANKSGIVING !!

[legolas]

Well....I have a 2017 Winnie 31KP 450 V10 5spd....I like it. I am really a Chevy guy and would have preferred a Class C on a Chevy platform but could not find one. As to gas mileage, maintenance and such I do have some experience there. I owned TT's over a period of 8 years(traded the last one on the Minnie Winnie). I pulled the TT's with a 2008 Silverado 2500 360 6spd.....my avg mpg was always between 9 and 10, no matter where I pulled. I lived in NC in the Smokies, there you travel uphill - both ways 9-10 mpg, from NC to NE Utah (Capital Reef NP) along I-70 through Denver 9-10. This diesel vs gas argument always seems to leave out some realities such as t.....the initial acquisition cost - diesel is always more. The diesel folks would like to tout better mpg and they are generally correct as far as they go. Before I bought the Silverado to tow my 30' Koala TT I did research - lots of research on the diesel Silverado vs the gasser. Acquisition cost was never less than 10K more for the diesel and sometimes as much as 15K. Comparing REAL average MPG and the cost of fuel, diesel always being more, the cost of maintenance, the cost of parts and depending on where one lives the availability of qualified service personnel.
I did a spreadsheet comparing all the data I could find on the subject and forgetting all the rest, just the increased acquisition cost plus the cost of fuel ( if one really believes the 15 mpg vs 7 mpg) the beak even point for two Silverado's of the same flavor and equipped identically was 10 years.

So from my point of view the issue is simply a personal one. Buy what makes you comfortable but put this MPG boogeyman out of your mind…..if MPG really bothers you don’t buy and RV – stay in a motel.

[AJMike]

Originally Posted by legolas

if MPG really bothers you don’t buy and RV – stay in a motel.

I have a different view about this. First let me say that I do not disagree with any of the figures you have mentioned, or the initial costs or even the break-even date, although that does ignore the additional trade-in value of a diesel over a gasser and makes an assumption about how far people travel in a year. The average RVer is supposed to go 4,000-5,000 miles a year and I travel more than twice that a year. However I think there are other things to consider.

First, using far less fuel only only impacts the out-of-pocket costs, but also the amount of oil that has to be produced and refined. I got 18 mpg with my diesel Fuse on our last trip and that is double what I used to get with my gasser RV, and that means far less oil being pumped out of the ground and far less energy being used to refine that fuel. And, since diesel requires far less refining than gasoline the difference is even greater than what can be accounted for by the difference in mileage figures. If more people used diesels we would be less reliant on foreign oil supplies and our own supplies would last considerably longer. My RV fuel mileage is higher than my previous Jeep gasser.

Second, diesels are supposed to last considerably longer than gas engines. I understand that gassers are now much better and last longer, with many people saying that they can expect 150,000 miles with their gas engine, but the same thing is true for diesels. Diesel engines, which used to be good for 200,000 miles are probably now good for 300,000 miles. Am I going to drive an RV that long? No, but added engine life means added trade-in value.

Third, Diesel engines have more torque at lower rpms are are better at hill climbing, especially when using a toad. My old gas Class A with its great Ford V10 always had problems on hills and I guess it is the nature of the beast. I have not seen that with my diesel.

So, if your concern is strictly monetary, then yes, gassers are probably a bit less expensive to operate than diesels, but I think there is more than just the out-of-pocket expenses to consider and I think the advantage gassers have over diesels is not as large as some assume.

Am I opposed to gas RVs? Of course not. I almost bought a gasser Class A instead of my new diesel Winnebago Fuse, but I do think that diesels can hold their own in the cost argument when all things are considered.

[Ret.LEO]

I think there are other factors to consider with G Vs D. The Diesels of today in Class C at least are a different animal than it's predecessors. No longer made to be able to idle for periods of time unlike when a D could idle for days. DEF and anti pollution devices have added a whole array of constrictive and possible problem components. Then add in Class C's you will have a propane gen unless you drop another 5K for a D gen. Most obvious D can be harder to find and then the quality of the D comes into play. More expensive at the pump and add the cost of DEF. If you have a injector(s) go bad or a turbo go out it's time to call the banker. If a major catastrophe would occur and a rebuild or replacement is needed probably your banker will want a 2nd on your house. If you have a problem good luck finding a shop willing or able to work on it. Then if you do the labor rate will rival your Cardiac
Surgeon.
The D's of today aren't like yesterday's where you went 500K miles and had a inframe overhaul done and a out of frame at 1Mil.
My best friend is a long time Ford Service Manager and then went out on his own. Been a Ford man for 40+ years. I approached him about which way to go, G or D. He was adamant to go Ford V-10 vs Diesel. His reasons are down to earth practical ones.
He says the Ford V-10 is w/out a doubt one of the best engines ever made regardless of brand. Capable of extended idle time. Like he said for his shop if a person pulls in with a Diesel problem if it's not a obvious simple diagnosis he sends them to the heavy truck shop down the road where the labor rates are 50% more per hour. If someone pulls on the lot with a V-10 problem it's a easy diagnosis, he can get the Class C in in his shop and can work on it. Any parts that would be needed would either be in his shop's inventory or a phone call away from the local O'reillys or the local Ford Dealer. He said the same would hold true while traveling, any small town would probably have a mechanic that could work on it. Add to that the gen is being fueled right from the gas tank.
Like Dan said with good oil, filters, P.M. there's no reason why the V-10 wouldn't last as long as a same class size Diesel. Then if worse came to worse a rebuild or replacement which can be found through salvage yards would be 1/2 of a Diesel.
Without a doubt when we finally order a our new Class C it will be a E-450 with a V-10 engine.
Now...........if I hit the Lotto and I can afford a 500K luxury Class A it will be a DP with a big old Cat or Detroit Diesel That's a whole another dream though!