Micro Minnie Thread

[Fred 2106DS]

Originally Posted by Amazonica

Just finished reading all 22 pages of this thread. Thank you to everyone who has asked, and answered, various questions. I pick up my new-to-me 2019 2108DS on Monday and have two questions come to mind.

1. Has anyone installed a Fridge Defend ARP for the gas powered fridges? I have heard that besides safety, it also helps with corrosion.

2. Is it safe to drive down the road with the fridge on propane?

I am a fulltime traveler and have been living in a smaller trailer that has a fridge that only runs on electric, but has 190 watts of solar to help keep the batteries powered. As others have mentioned, my install date for lithium batteries and solar is January 11th. So until then I’ll be trying to get by with one puny 12v. I do have a Champion generator. I’m no pro and really appreciate learning from you all.

Welcome Amazonica!

I installed an ARP a couple of years ago. Here is a link to my post over on IRV2.

I can't comment on whether or not it is safe to travel with your propane on, but a lot of RVer's do. We did until I installed a DC/DC charger last year to mate up with our inverter, roof top solar and lithium batteries, now we travel with our fridge on electric.

[Fred 2106DS]

Originally Posted by Marine359

I had to make a dozen phone calls to find an RV service shop with reasonable pricing and experience greater than my DIY skills. Trying to find somebody reliable to install LifePo4 battery and inverter charger in my pass through. I can do the DC side myself. The AC side gets dicey because cables have to be routed under the floor to the breaker box which is under the fridge,

First place I called said that kind of complex job would cost me at least $1,200 labor only. I couldn’t stop laughing when I hung up (it ain’t complex). I tried several others before calling Camping World, which quoted a ridiculous price of $800. More laughing, more calls. Finally found a small shop who said they do lots of these kind of installs on travel trailers, and that it shouldn’t take more than 3 or 4 hours @ $100/hr. Only problem is this shop is booked through the middle of January. Seems lots of folks are doing LiFePo4/inverter/charger upgrades because prices have come down so much, and people want to boondock because of Covid. They already knew the Winnie has an enclosed underbody that might have to be dropped to pull cables. I never trust my first instinct so I did a quick drive by, and found that their bays were indeed full and the lot was jammed with about 30 pretty new motor homes and trailers. So, I made an apt for Jan 18th, which gives me plenty of time to get my components, or would it?

I really wanted a Bigbattery 170ah power block. Website says they’re back ordered, and nobody answers the phone when you call. Good response from Xantrex though. Anybody else have experience installing batteries/inverter/charger in pass through?

Jim, I will try and post our install with pictures by the end of the weekend. We have our 20A DC/DC charger, 30A solar controller, 200A lithium batteries, 1000W inverter with remote switch and 45A lithium charger all located in the pass through. I will also show you how we ran marine grade 14 AWG wiring from the inverter to our transfer switch/power center without needing to drop the underbelly covering by using bulkheads and flexible electrical conduit. We can upgrade the size of the wiring in the future if needed, but using a 1000W inverter (8.3 amps AC continuous), 14 AWG is large enough for us.

[Amazonica]

Thank you Fred 2106DS. I did read your install from the link. Great photos - always helpful. I will have to see if I have the guts to install my own when I get it. I can change my own oil (in the truck) and do minor repairs, but I do know how little I know when it comes to electrical things.
To verify, we have the fridge vent on top as well as the one on the side, correct? They sell different versions based on the vent locations.
I saw you got a fan, did you also get the blower?

[Marine359]

Thanks a ton Fred.
If you can post your install, or a link, I may be able to do this install myself.

Curious why you opted for stand alone inverter and transfer switch with separate charger instead of an all-in-one inverter charger with auto transfer built-in. Does your setup just cost less, or is it an easier install?

BTW: finally got through to Bigbattery. They claim they now have enough components to relieve the backlog within a couple of weeks, so I ordered, and they say I’ll get my 170ah power block within 3 weeks. They also lowered the price $100, so price came to $799. Pretty good deal I think if the battery performs well. $4.70/ah.

[Fred 2106DS]

Originally Posted by Amazonica

Thank you Fred 2106DS. I did read your install from the link. Great photos - always helpful. I will have to see if I have the guts to install my own when I get it. I can change my own oil (in the truck) and do minor repairs, but I do know how little I know when it comes to electrical things.
To verify, we have the fridge vent on top as well as the one on the side, correct? They sell different versions based on the vent locations.
I saw you got a fan, did you also get the blower?

Yes, we have the fridge vent on top as well as the one on the side.

This is the kit I used.
v5.1 ARP Fridge Protection Control with Fan Controller and 1 Fan $195.00

I made my own defrost blower using a computer fan. It's worked well. Here is the link to my post.

[Fred 2106DS]

Originally Posted by Marine359

Thanks a ton Fred.
If you can post your install, or a link, I may be able to do this install myself.

Curious why you opted for stand alone inverter and transfer switch with separate charger instead of an all-in-one inverter charger with auto transfer built-in. Does your setup just cost less, or is it an easier install?

BTW: finally got through to Bigbattery. They claim they now have enough components to relieve the backlog within a couple of weeks, so I ordered, and they say I’ll get my 170ah power block within 3 weeks. They also lowered the price $100, so price came to $799. Pretty good deal I think if the battery performs well. $4.70/ah.

I mainly opted for standalone pieces so if one fails, I only need to replace/fix that unit. Also, I wanted to build a stand-alone unit that could be used as a removable portable power center and could be recharged using my 120W portable solar panel or generator.

Below are a few of pictures of our stand-alone power center. I pull it for winter and keep it inside. You can see I mounted the charger and inverter on the lid of the large battery box giving a very short wiring run for both. Inside the large battery box is our Bogart SC-2030 solar controller and battery shunt. We have a Bogart TM-2030 battery monitor mounted inside the MM.

We have the ability disconnect the second battery and switch to using just one battery or turning off the whole power center if desired (picture #3).

Color coded Anderson connectors are used for all disconnects so it's just a matter of matching colors when connecting/reconnecting to the MM (picture#4).

The yellow connector is used for connecting the battery charger or powering the inverter. Currently I manually choose which one, I'm working on a switch for this connection that I can access from inside the MM.

The red connector is the solar input.

The gray connector provides power to the MM's 12V system.

The light blue double connector is the parallel connection for the batteries and the light blue single connector is the positive connection coming from the second battery giving 200AH of capacity.

Your cost per AH is a little less than half of what ours cost. $9.75/ah. Your purchase looks like a great deal if it performs well.

[Marine359]

Exquisite Fred.
Over my head though for DIY. So, I shopped your components and found that there is no more than $20 difference between the stand alone approach, and the all-in-one approach, presuming of course that you had to buy a transfer switch. I like your approach better because you have built in the possibility of failure. All in one will be expensive if there is a failure. I took your advice to purchase a dc/dc charger. Makes a lot of sense.

Just wondering whether you re-used some of the existing dc wiring from the breaker box to connect to the new converter. and whether you just ran a AC 30amp extension cord to get shore power from the breaker box to the inverter, and another 30amp cable from inverter AC out back to the breaker box. Also, did you remove the old converter, and remove the deep cycle on the tongue? If so did you reconnect dc for tongue jack and slide out to the new battery box?

[Fred 2106DS]

Originally Posted by Marine359

Exquisite Fred.
Over my head though for DIY. So, I shopped your components and found that there is no more than $20 difference between the stand alone approach, and the all-in-one approach, presuming of course that you had to buy a transfer switch. I like your approach better because you have built in the possibility of failure. All in one will be expensive if there is a failure. I took your advice to purchase a dc/dc charger. Makes a lot of sense.

Just wondering whether you re-used some of the existing dc wiring from the breaker box to connect to the new converter. and whether you just ran a AC 30amp extension cord to get shore power from the breaker box to the inverter, and another 30amp cable from inverter AC out back to the breaker box. Also, did you remove the old converter, and remove the deep cycle on the tongue? If so did you reconnect dc for tongue jack and slide out to the new battery box?

Yes, I did buy the transfer switch.

I didn’t change any of the DC wiring on the MM. I pulled the existing battery wires, which ran to the battery on the tongue, back through the frame and ran them up through the existing hole in the floor below the cut-off switch. I then terminated the wires in a junction box that I added near the cut-off switch. Here is a link to a previous post with pictures explaining what I did. You may also want to read this additional post, it is in the same thread, it has a link to our solar install that contains additional pictures showing our original setup in the pass-through. Since then, I have added the inverter, lithium charger, DC/DC charger and second battery.

From the junction box near the cut-off switch, I ran 6 AWG wires that terminate in a gray Anderson connector that mates to the gray Anderson connector coming off the Power Center/Battery Boxes that I noted in my earlier post, see first picture below.

I did remove the standard deep-cycle battery and battery box from the tongue and replaced those with a carpenter’s tool box mounted with self tapping screws. I store leveling blocks and ramps in the toolbox, see second and third pictures below.

As for the AC side, I connected 14/3 AWG Triplex AC Marine Wire from the 1000W inverter located in the pass-through to the WFCO T-30 automatic transfer switch which mounts to the side of the WFCO Power Center located under the refrigerator, see pictures 4-7 below. I then disconnected the incoming 10/2 shore power wires from the WFCO Power Center and connected them to the transfer switch. I then connected the output wires from the transfer switch, labeled “To Distribution Panel”, to our Progressive Industries hardwired EMS-HW30C Surge & Electrical Protector using additional 10/2 wiring. Again using additional 10/2 wiring, the output from the EMS-HW30C was connected to the WFCO Power Center at the same connection points where the shore power wires were originally removed.

A couple points about the automatic transfer switch. There are two inputs; one is labeled “To Shore Power” and the other “To Generator”. The “To Generator” input is what I would call the default input. By that, I mean if power is coming in on both the “To Shore Power” and “To Generator” inputs, the transfer switch will default to using the power from the “To Generator” input. If power is lost on the “To Generator” input, the transfer switch will automatically switch to the “To Shore Power” input and automatically switch back to the “To Generator” input once power is restored to that input. You can find a copy of the automatic transfer switch here.

I also disconnected the converter side of the WFCO Power Center since I’m using the lithium charger in the pass-through, see last picture below.

Since we mainly dry camp, I connected our shore power wiring to the “To Generator” (default) input on the transfer switch and connected our inverter power to the “To Shore Power” input. I did this so that when I connect our generator to the shore power connection on the MM, the transfer switch will automatically default to that power source and disconnect from the inverter power source. Hope that makes sense. Also, when we’re home, I have our MM connected to a 30A power pedestal, which then becomes the default power source.

I’m still working on the post on how I ran the AC wiring from the pass-through back to the transfer switch without dropping the underbelly, I will also include how I installed our DC/DC charger and ran that wiring so you have that information. This post may take another day or two, this weekend has been a little busier than I expected.

[Fred 2106DS]

Jim,

I forgot to include a picture of where I mounted our EMS-HW30C Surge & Electrical Protector. It is mounted in the shallow cabinet below our oven, but I don't believe that cabinet exists in the newer MMs.

[Marine359]

Fred, you are solid gold.
Since I’m going with an inverter charger, I shouldn’t need the transfer switch. Except that I want to be able to connect a 2200w generator to shore power and disable the charge side. Otherwise I won’t be able to run roof A/C because the charger will be sucking too much amperage for battery charge. If I can’t accomplish that with the Bluetooth interface, I’m guessing I’d still have to install transfer switch at the main bbox.

[Fred 2106DS]

Originally Posted by Marine359

Fred, you are solid gold.
Since I’m going with an inverter charger, I shouldn’t need the transfer switch. Except that I want to be able to connect a 2200w generator to shore power and disable the charge side. Otherwise I won’t be able to run roof A/C because the charger will be sucking too much amperage for battery charge. If I can’t accomplish that with the Bluetooth interface, I’m guessing I’d still have to install transfer switch at the main bbox.

Jim, as promised, here's how I ran the AC wiring from the 1000W inverter in the pass-through to the WFCO automatic transfer switch mounted to the WFCO Power Center under the refrigerator.

First I ordered two 1” slip bulkheads, 14/3 AWG Triplex AC Marine Wire and butyl seal tape from Amazon. The rest of the materials came from Home Depot.

First, I located where I wanted to drill holes to install the two bulkheads. Both bulkheads will be installed on the right-hand side of the MM outside the frame rails. One bulkhead is installed in the pass-through close to the outside wall and the other is installed under the sink in front of the wheel well, close to the outside wall, see pictures below. For the bulkheads, I drilled the holes through the 5/8” ply flooring using a 2” hole saw and then used a utility knife to cut and “X” in the PVC underbelly covering just big enough to fit the spacer and body of the bulkhead through, see “Bulkhead Installation” PDF diagram below. I used butyl tape to make those installations watertight.

After installing the bulkheads, I used adapters and ½” flexible PVC conduit and fittings to connect the bulkheads, see pictures below. I found it easier to dry fit the adapters, conduit and fittings first and then pull all those pieces apart and run the 14/3 wiring and wiring for the inverter's remote on/off switch through all the individual pieces, leaving enough wiring at each end to make to needed final connections, I then completed the final install. After that, it is just a matter of connecting the wires to the inverter, automatic transfer switch and the inverter's remote on/off switch. I used a 15 amp plug to connect to the inverter, see first picture below. There is a picture in one of my previous posts, in this thread, showing the connection at the transfer switch. I located the inverter's remote on/off switch on the sink cabinet wall as you enter the MM, see last picture below.

Installation of my DC/DC charger and wiring to follow in a new post.

[Fred 2106DS]

Originally Posted by Fred 2106DS

Installation of my DC/DC charger and wiring to follow in a new post.

Jim, here’s how I installed the DC/DC charger and wiring.

First I approximated the length of the wire run between the truck battery and DC/DC charger based on the routing I was going to use. I estimated a maximum distance of 44 feet, giving me a maximum round trip wire length of 88 feet. To give me a voltage loss of 3% or less, I used 2 AWG wire. The actual round trip length turned out to be 84 feet.

Next, starting at the truck battery, I added a 30A inline fuse mounted to the lid of the under-hood fuse box on the positive wire to protect the wire run as recommended in the charger's manual, see picture below of under-hood installation. I then ran both the positive and negative wires through the left side truck frame and exited the frame at the rear of the cab. At this point I encased the wires in wire loom and ran the loomed wires up through a knockout at the bottom left front of the truck bed and then up to the bottom of the left bed rail. From there I ran the loomed wires suspended below the bed rail back to the tailgate and terminated the wires in a protected Anderson connector, see picture below.

Next, I installed the charger and wiring on the MM. I mounted the charger inside and above the right side pass-through door, seen in the third picture below. Starting from the input side of the charger, I ran the remainder of the 2 AWG wiring to the MM’s tongue through a combination of both ridged and flexible PVC conduit, a bulkhead, a LB connector, clamps and a couple other conduit fittings, see pictures 4-8 below. At the tongue, leaving enough length to reach the Anderson connector inside the truck bed with some slack, approximately 7 feet in my case, I terminated the wires using another protected Anderson connector that mates to the Anderson connector inside the truck bed. I also wrapped the slack wiring with electrical tape to make it easier handle and store. Prior to traveling, after connecting the two Anderson connectors, I move the slack wiring to the center of the closed tailgate and pinch it between the top of the tailgate and tonneau cover. This keeps the wiring centered and in place during turns and also removes any strain on the connection inside the truck bed. When not in use, I loop the slack wiring around the jack a few times to store and secure it, as you can see in picture 7.

Next, I installed the output wiring from the charger to the batteries. I used 10 AWG wire with a 25A fuse located inside the battery box. I also ran a red 16 AWG trigger wire from the charger to the MM’s clearance lights, which allows me to use the light switch for the truck to turn the charger on and off, see the last picture below.

I guess that is about it unless you want see how we turned the microwave cabinet into additional storage or removed the built in medicine cabinet and replaced it with a slide in unit I built with a lower medicine cabinet that is also a little bigger inside. Now we have mirror and medicine cabinet we can use without needing a stool.

[Marine359]

Fred,
Don’t know how to thank you. Based on your posts, I abandoned idea of inverter charger, and went with 1500w pure sine inverter. Saves me a few hundred bucks vs buying an expensive inverter charger. After I added the cost of the remote panel for the Xantrex, it became way too expensive. The 1500w unit I’m looking out is 1/3 the cost and comes with a remote on/off switch, which is probably all I need. I’ll hold off on the dc/dc charger you illustrated until I have some time under my belt with your install. No solar for now, not in the budget. We’ll make a long trip to Florida with the setup you recommended and decide where we go fro there.
Thanks again,

[Fred 2106DS]

Originally Posted by Marine359

Fred,
Don’t know how to thank you. Based on your posts, I abandoned idea of inverter charger, and went with 1500w pure sine inverter. Saves me a few hundred bucks vs buying an expensive inverter charger. After I added the cost of the remote panel for the Xantrex, it became way too expensive. The 1500w unit I’m looking out is 1/3 the cost and comes with a remote on/off switch, which is probably all I need. I’ll hold off on the dc/dc charger you illustrated until I have some time under my belt with your install. No solar for now, not in the budget. We’ll make a long trip to Florida with the setup you recommended and decide where we go fro there.
Thanks again,

Your welcome Jim. Let me know if you have additional questions.
Fred

[Old Navy]

Some real "out of the box" thinking in that setup. I'm considering the same path you used for the flexible conduit, passing through the openings where the "outriggers" meet the frame. Nice and protected up in there. I had not yet considered all the details, and your "plumbing" has given me a lot of ideas.

In boats, manufacturers frequently pre-install wiring tubes that make it easy to run new wires. In RV's you are on your own.

[Fred 2106DS]

Originally Posted by Old Navy

Some real "out of the box" thinking in that setup. I'm considering the same path you used for the flexible conduit, passing through the openings where the "outriggers" meet the frame. Nice and protected up in there. I had not yet considered all the details, and your "plumbing" has given me a lot of ideas.

In boats, manufacturers frequently pre-install wiring tubes that make it easy to run new wires. In RV's you are on your own.

Old Navy, that is why I'm more than happy to put my mods out there with pictures, hoping it will help others or at least give them ideas on solving problems their working on.

Also, in hope others will do the same to give all of us some new ideas or ideas to help us work through some issues/problems that we may be thinking about.

[Marine359]

Just casually reading through the Xantrex manual, and ran across some confusing info.
Manual says it is unsafe to mount the inverter charger in the same compartment with the batteries. And, the inverter compartment must be vented.

We’ll, I thought you want to mount the inverter as close as possible to the batteries. And MM pass through are not vented. Since many are co-locating inverter and battery next to each other in the pass through, I suppose the Xantrex manual is just CYA. No?

[Fred 2106DS]

Originally Posted by Marine359

Just casually reading through the Xantrex manual, and ran across some confusing info.
Manual says it is unsafe to mount the inverter charger in the same compartment with the batteries. And, the inverter compartment must be vented.

We’ll, I thought you want to mount the inverter as close as possible to the batteries. And MM pass through are not vented. Since many are co-locating inverter and battery next to each other in the pass through, I suppose the Xantrex manual is just CYA. No?

Jim, I looked at the Xantrex PROwatt SW inverter manual, not sure if that is the one you are looking at or not. In my opinion, they don't want you to mount the inverter in the same bay as lead acid batteries due to the off gassing that can be both explosive and corrosive. Since your going with lithium, you should be good.

As for the inverter compartment being vented, it will depend on how much heat your inverter and charger generates and the ambient temperature in your pass-through. The manual said, ideally, you want the ambient temperature range to be between 32 and 104 degrees F. Since your in the Southeast you may need to consider ventilation if your inverter and charger are running under a heavy load for extended periods. We've never had an issue with ventilation in our enclosed pass-through, but we camp in the Northeast and our inverter and charger aren't under heavy load for extended periods.

Hopefully others will comment.

[Marine359]

Fred,
I keep vascillating between buying an inverter and an inverter charger. Have to make up my mind in a few days because my battery should arrive 2nd week of January.
I’m a bit of a cheapskate, but I’m leaning toward one of the more expensive options. The Xantrex Freedom XC 2000w has some features I can’t get with a stand alone inverter. I like the Bluetooth remote panel, but I especially like the ac load balancing feature. Since the inverter side supplies enough juice to start up the roof a/c, theoretically, I can then go outside and plug 2200w generator into shore power and the Xantrex will automatically balance load to share all the ac loads with the generator by reducing current to the charger. The Xantrex with remote comes in at just over $800 which is $300 more than the standalone route. If it can do everything they claim, it’ll be worth it in the long run.

It also has 2 fans, so I shouldn’t have to worry much about heat buildup. Maybe put a thermostatic 12v fan in the pass through and open the doors so the mice can get in. Lol

[Old Navy]

I like features of the XC 2000, and I think the charger will be perfect for the new battery. You will get a lot more juice back in your battery when running the generator than with your converter. It also has Power Factor Correction, which really helps reduce the load on the genny when charging. The AC load management (Power Share) is really cool. I ran into a problem when I tried to use my microwave in the morning when my inefficient converter was pushing 30As to the batteries. "Power Share" would have shut down charging automatically.

As for the heat, I doubt you will have a problem. You can get a general idea of how much heat you will generate from the inverter specs. At max inverter output, the Xantrex is 87.5% efficient. So the maximum heat generated would be about 250W. That's equivalent to about 800 BTU/h, or about the same heat put out by four 60W incandescent bulbs. That's only when you are maxing out at 2000W. I'm sure the compartment would get pretty warm if you inverted near max power for hours at a time, but without a roof full of solar panels, your battery will probably run out before the Xantrex gets hot enough to shut down automatically.