Shower Cold Water Backflow Issue?

[johneed]

Just picked up a 2020 Minnie 2401RG, but had to put it into storage for a few months. I've been watching a lot of Youtube involving various brands. I guess it's common to have low performing shower heads and shutoff valves. I have no issue with replacing both of them, as relatively low cost and hassle with everything being accessible.

I just watched a video, can't remember the brand, where the owner said that every time they turn off their replacement non-leaking shower head valve, the higher pressure cold water forces its way into the hot water lines, resulting in a blast of cold water when they open the valve back up. In their case, they had a hallway access panel that made it relatively easy to install a Camco backflow prevention valve into the hot water line right behind the shower valves.

Can anyone say whether or not Winnebagos have this annoying problem?

If they do, this is likely something I want to tackle over the winter before our first trip. Our shower valves are on an exterior wall, so I don't know about getting access close to the valves? I can see both cold and hot water lines on the floor, at the bottom of an adjacent closet. I think it would be relatively easy to install a one-way valve there if needed.

TIA!

[tinglett]

I had this problem, except I'd get a blast of nuclear hot water. I'm not sure which is worse . I ended up installing a little valve on the shower head hose. I put the valve on the end of the hose attaching to the shower valve assembly. This let's me adjust the water flow without messing with the hot/cold water mix...but it also seemed to make this backflow issue go away. I'm perplexed as to why this would have fixed the scalding hot water issue, though.

Mine has the shower valve assembly at a 45deg angle shower section in the corner, so there would be room right behind the valve to place those backflow prevention valves, I would think. If yours is similar, maybe you should pull the valve assembly out and have a look (without unhooking the pex connections).

[johneed]

Thanks Todd,

I think you're right that the valves are on a 45-deg wall. If I'm understanding you correctly, you installed your valve close to the wall and the valves there, instead of up by the shower head, correct?

Hot or cold, we won't like it and I'd prefer to try an external solution before getting into walls and valves and water lines....

[Old Navy]

I had the same problem in my 2401. Rather than mess with backflow prevention valves, I replaced the two handled shower valve with a single handle valve. It works perfectly and is a very simple DIY. IMO, easier and better than backflow valves, and you no longer have to use the "dribble button" on the shower head. You just turn off the water at the valve. Link to pics below.

Single Handle Shower Valve

[johneed]

Originally Posted by Old Navy

I had the same problem in my 2401. Rather than mess with backflow prevention valves, I replaced the two handled shower valve with a single handle valve. It works perfectly and is a very simple DIY. IMO, easier and better than backflow valves, and you no longer have to use the "dribble button" on the shower head. You just turn off the water at the valve. Link to pics below.

Single Handle Shower Valve

LOVE IT! We've remodeled two bathrooms and a kitchen in our home over the years, and have switched all sinks and showers to single handle. This is the perfect solution, and I think I can even DIY! Thanks!

[Wyatt]

Originally Posted by johneed

Just picked up a 2020 Minnie 2401RG, but had to put it into storage for a few months. I've been watching a lot of Youtube involving various brands. I guess it's common to have low performing shower heads and shutoff valves. I have no issue with replacing both of them, as relatively low cost and hassle with everything being accessible.

I just watched a video, can't remember the brand, where the owner said that every time they turn off their replacement non-leaking shower head valve, the higher pressure cold water forces its way into the hot water lines, resulting in a blast of cold water when they open the valve back up. In their case, they had a hallway access panel that made it relatively easy to install a Camco backflow prevention valve into the hot water line right behind the shower valves.

Can anyone say whether or not Winnebagos have this annoying problem?

If they do, this is likely something I want to tackle over the winter before our first trip. Our shower valves are on an exterior wall, so I don't know about getting access close to the valves? I can see both cold and hot water lines on the floor, at the bottom of an adjacent closet. I think it would be relatively easy to install a one-way valve there if needed.

TIA!

That’s not a Winnebago issue per se, but an issue in any RV that has unequal pressure between the hot and cold lines, and doesn’t already have a backflow device on the hot side.

We couldn’t access ours from behind, so I took it apart from inside the shower. Added the Camco brass backflow device, on the hot side, with yellow plumbing tape on the threads as the brass doesn’t sync up will with the plastic water lines.

Then I changes out the valves and shower head while I was at it.

[tinglett]

Originally Posted by johneed

LOVE IT!

Yeah, I completely agree that Old Navy has the best solution. All the better if it also solves this backflow issue! Yet another project for the spring. I need to start making a list and checking it twice....

[imnprsd]

I echo the convenience of using a single flow faucet, but these things DO NOT have temperature or pressure balancing valves built-in, because they are so basic. This means you need to let some (or a lot) of hot water run until you flush out the lines and get to the temperature you want.

Moreover, the cold automatically mixes with the hot wasting more water. And when you water pump turns on-and-off when you boondock, you can get temperature variations that are annoying.

So this spring, to improve and stabilize my water delivery to my bathroom sink and shower, I plan on adding one or two Shark Bite check valves as close to the bathroom faucet and the shower as possible. (Or I may put one Shark Bite Check Valve in the the main hot water line located in my water bay. See picture below with cover removed to expose water lines.)

The good news is that these Shark Bite Check Valves can be more easily installed vs. the Camco "check valves" and Shark Bites are more reliable. (Meaning they should last longer.) They are also easier to install, because you just have to cut the line and press them in place vs. Camco that you need to screw on; and most of the time access is an issue.

Alternatively: If you find you are getting bursts of hot water when in a camp site, it's possible you have lost your air gap in the hot water tank? You can fix this easily by:

* Turning off the water source.
* Then open the Safety Overflow Valve on the hot water tank... and let the excess water out of the tank.
* Then close the overflow valve; and turn the water source on. This will increase the air gap so the height of the hot water flows more optimally.

It's amazing how basic some RV systems are. In this case, hot water rises to the top of the tank. And when the air gap shrinks you get bursts of hot and cold when the Air Expansion Pocket is compromised.

I have found my hot water fluctuates after about 3-4 weeks of being hooked up to a water source. And when I purge the hot water tank everything returns to normal.

This picture will help you understand the importance of maintaining an "air expansion pocket" in you hot water tank.

Note: I removed the Camco Check Valves from my hot water outlet and cold water inlet when they broke... leaving me without hot water for 3 days. You don't need these check valves at all and IMO Camco is junk. Plus, the better location for check valves is as close to your faucet and shower valve as possible, but Winnebago does not always follow best design practices. They are good, maybe even great compared to other RV manufactures, but we can do better!

If you don't have access to your shower valve, or under your sink you find a 3/8" water line feeding your bathroom sink faucet, then maybe the best location to install one of these 1/2" Shark Bite Check Valves is behind the metal panel in your water bay? (TBD)

See Diagram Below for my 2004 Itasca Horizon for hot water routing from the hot water tank to the mess of water pipe behind your water panel in the water service bay on the driver's side of the coach.

Your plumbing system maybe different, but I think most Winnebago RVs follow the same pattern when it comes to hot water flow? (TBD)

[Old Navy]

Originally Posted by imnprsd

I echo the convenience of using a single flow faucet, but these things DO NOT have temperature or pressure balancing valves built-in, because they are so basic. This means you need to let some (or a lot) of hot water run until you flush out the lines and get to the temperature you want.

True, a pressure or temperature balanced valve would be nice. But as long as nobody messes with water while someone is showering, it's not a problem. My trailer only has one bathroom, so nobody is going to flush the toilet when I'm in the shower. My wife and I have a truce on running any water in the kitchen when one us is showering. But while a pressure/temperature balancing valve will save you from a blast of hot when someone flushes a toilet, you still have to run the hot water to flush the cold from the lines. 25 feet of 1/2" PEX is about 4 cups of water.

[Wyatt]

Originally Posted by imnprsd

I echo the convenience of using a single flow faucet, but these things DO NOT have temperature or pressure balancing valves built-in, because they are so basic. This means you need to let some (or a lot) of hot water run until you flush out the lines and get to the temperature you want.

Moreover, the cold automatically mixes with the hot wasting more water. And when you water pump turns on-and-off when you boondock, you can get temperature variations that are annoying.

So this spring, to improve and stabilize my water delivery to my bathroom sink and shower, I plan on adding one or two Shark Bite check valves as close to the bathroom faucet and the shower as possible. (Or I may put one Shark Bite Check Valve in the the main hot water line located in my water bay. See picture below with cover removed to expose water lines.)

The good news is that these Shark Bite Check Valves can be more easily installed vs. the Camco "check valves" and Shark Bites are more reliable. (Meaning they should last longer.) They are also easier to install, because you just have to cut the line and press them in place vs. Camco that you need to screw on; and most of the time access is an issue.

Alternatively: If you find you are getting bursts of hot water when in a camp site, it's possible you have lost your air gap in the hot water tank? You can fix this easily by:

* Turning off the water source.
* Then open the Safety Overflow Valve on the hot water tank... and let the excess water out of the tank.
* Then close the overflow valve; and turn the water source on. This will increase the air gap so the height of the hot water flows more optimally.

It's amazing how basic some RV systems are. In this case, hot water rises to the top of the tank. And when the air gap shrinks you get bursts of hot and cold when the Air Expansion Pocket is compromised.

I have found my hot water fluctuates after about 3-4 weeks of being hooked up to a water source. And when I purge the hot water tank everything returns to normal.

This picture will help you understand the importance of maintaining an "air expansion pocket" in you hot water tank.

Note: I removed the Camco Check Valves from my hot water outlet and cold water inlet when they broke... leaving me without hot water for 3 days. You don't need these check valves at all and IMO Camco is junk. Plus, the better location for check valves is as close to your faucet and shower valve as possible, but Winnebago does not always follow best design practices. They are good, maybe even great compared to other RV manufactures, but we can do better!

If you don't have access to your shower valve, or under your sink you find a 3/8" water line feeding your bathroom sink faucet, then maybe the best location to install one of these 1/2" Shark Bite Check Valves is behind the metal panel in your water bay? (TBD)

See Diagram Below for my 2004 Itasca Horizon for hot water routing from the hot water tank to the mess of water pipe behind your water panel in the water service bay on the driver's side of the coach.

Your plumbing system maybe different, but I think most Winnebago RVs follow the same pattern when it comes to hot water flow? (TBD)

That’s quite the diatribe on what is right and what is wrong.

My Camco hot water line backflow device works fine. And we also have a single valve faucet, which is more of a convenience, than a solution.

Sure. Being able to shut off the water and turn it back on will also prevent backflow with a single handle faucet, but I don’t wanna be fiddling with the valve when I’m taking a shower so I also have a shut off valve above and a backflow to keep it from moving from hot to cold when showering.

[imnprsd]

Looks like I hurt Wyat's feelings. Didn't know you were so attached to Camco. They suck. And I feel I can say that since I had to take cold showers for 3 days... and I could not find anyone to replace them. So I drilled the centers out and put the Camco "nipple" back in my hot water heater (both of them).

I saved $200 doing this, maybe $300, because drilling those Camco check valves out cost me nothing... and that exercise is one of the best tips I can give anyone. ... And after I drilled and replace the nipple I had hot water again. So I will never recommend Camco to anyone, but I'm glad your Camco's are working for the time being.

You guys with newer rigs might not have experience a failed Camco check valve, but you will some day. These things should never have been used in the first place, and my point is that the best place for inserting a check valve is a close to your bathroom faucet as possible. And I think if you insert just one hot water shark bite check valve under your sink.

I'm still not clear: What is the purpose for having a cold water check valve at the hot water fill side?

[Wyatt]

Originally Posted by imnprsd

Looks like I hurt Wyat's feelings. Didn't know you were so attached to Camco. They suck. And I feel I can say that since I had to take cold showers for 3 days... and I could not find anyone to replace them. So I drilled the centers out and put the Camco "nipple" back in my hot water heater (both of them).

I saved $200 doing this, maybe $300, because drilling those Camco check valves out cost me nothing... and that exercise is one of the best tips I can give anyone. ... And after I drilled and replace the nipple I had hot water again. So I will never recommend Camco to anyone, but I'm glad your Camco's are working for the time being.

You guys with newer rigs might not have experience a failed Camco check valve, but you will some day. These things should never have been used in the first place, and my point is that the best place for inserting a check valve is a close to your bathroom faucet as possible. And I think if you insert just one hot water shark bite check valve under your sink.

I'm still not clear: What is the purpose for having a cold water check valve at the hot water fill side?

Don’t worry, you didn’t hurt my feelings, I have much thicker skin than that.

And I’m not tied to Camco, no stock or anything. In fact, I really don’t even like their backflow device, and undoubtedly will change it out when I find a better one. The brass threads don’t synch up well with the plastic ones on the water lines.

There are some good videos on how to prevent the cold water from backflowing into the hot, if you’re interested.