Looking to buy 2004 Itasca Horizon 40AD

[Pusherdiva]

Seeking input on 2004 Itasca Horizon 40AD. Seriously considering purchasing. Any input on the Freightliner Chassis, Cummins ISC 8.3 L turbo, 350 hp..ZF-IFS Front Air Suspension, exhaust brake, NeWay rear air suspension will be very much appreciated.

[emiddleb]

I have the 'sister ship' though a different floorplan but I'll give you a few thoughts...

There is much written about used-RV inspections and you need to do your diligence. Coming up on 10 years old there's going to be things to check, and much of your decision will depend on the prior maintenance. I won't repeat what others have written.

One of the nice things about that RV is the wealth of owner info that's available between Winnie and Freightliner. Take advantage of the download areas to get the owners manual, maint manuals, sales brochures etc to educate yourself prior to purchase so you can better judge the unit. Camp Freightliner will give you a terrific amount of info and highly recommended if you go with that RV.

I've found mine to be a good reliable RV. The ISC engine provides plenty of power for any grade that I've yet to hit, though I haven't been to some of the monsters out West yet. Don't even notice the towed. CCC is good. The IFS and Freightliner chassis are a great drive experience, no issues, and I suggest you Don't drive it unless you are serious... you'll love it. First time riding in it the DW was amazed at the turning cut and ease of maneuvering on city streets. The side-mount radiator avoids much of the gunk issues. Beyond normal maint I've had really no unexpected issues with the engine/transmission/chassis side of things so far. Pretty rock solid.

I have had the normal maint issues over the years, can't say too many were out-of-line except perhaps the windshield frame rusting. Some get bitten by it, some don't... many threads on the topic.

Overall I've had far more maint and "issues" with the house side of the RV than I've had with the chassis side, which seemed to be the focus of your question. The Cummins ISC and Allison transmission are all proven and should last a long time as long as maint is followed. Mine sits about 5-6 months every year (snow belt) and in the Spring cranks up every time.

Just do your diligence. Every make and year has its roses and lemons, most of which is a result of prior-owner wear and care. Some will have great experience with it, some might not. Not sure of your prior experience with Class A DP, you will be buying into a significant maint cycle but also a lot of infrastructure that makes a DP fun to drive and enjoy. If you've not had one before, certainly consider Camp Freightliner as you'll be better able to discuss maint and issues with the mechanics and perhaps do some yourself.

Hope this helps a bit...

[lajuene]

I'll echo what Ed & Joie have to say. We also have the sister ship, same floorplan as yours too and have had it for 2 1/2 years. We are fulltime since 4/2012 and we have only had a few maint. issues all of which were normal wear and tear issues. A slide problem was user error by the previous owner opening it into a tree..... the tree won. Fuel pump replaced probably from the rig only having 11k miles on it in 20111 when we got it OR from a bad tank of fuel.

We love driving it and hills are easy too. We put lots of solar on the roof. Nice having basement air because it leaves a lot more space on the roof.

Air conditioning is a little weak if the temps get to 90 and you're in the full sun. We're ok with that, doesn't happen that often and we have shorts and a shower to cool off with.

Check this guys site. It's a 2005. He write a ton of stuff about his rig.
RV modifications, gossip, rants, our experiences, documents, trips, other stuff about our 2005 Winnebago Industries Itasca Horizon 40AD

[Pusherdiva]

Thanks so much for the GREAT input! Learning Lots thanks to all your help out there! I am studying ...reading everything i can find,,, brochures,,,owner manuals, rv forums...Winnebago has great archives online!

BUT...i everytime i ask a salesman if there are any service records.. I hit a brick wall...they tell me everytime that due to privacy laws...they cannot give out any service records....i ask them...."why cant you cover up their personal info and copy that ?". They again reply...absolutely cannot....ARIZONA state law...to prevent identity theft and privacy ...so no service records! Sooooo we are flying blind as to any work or service that the rig has had...i will do proper diligence once we find a rig we want ...and before the deal is done....will have it inspected by Cummins and Freightliner.....but still its a shame that the service/repair records are not available when buying from a dealer.
Please continue with any additional input....it is so valuable! And thnks again!

[Petro]

We have a 2005 Horizon 40 KD with a Cummins ISL 400 HP. We love the coach. I appreciate the quality of Winnebago & Freightliner.

Don

[smlranger]

That is a good coach with good bones. That is built on the FL Evolution chassis. Winnebago makes a solid coach. I owned two and both served us well.

As others noted, the way the coach was maintained is important. If it looks well cared for in terms of appearance and wear and tear, that would suggest the prior owner took care of it. You can insist on an engine oil and transmission fluid analysis, both of which can give you an idea of the overall health of the drive train. An experienced truck chassis mechanic can inspect the coach and tell you a lot about condition.

I would ask the dealer if they will call the prior owner and seek permission for you to call and inquire. That is what I did on my last two used DP purchases. In both cases, the prior owner was willing to talk to me and share info and answer questions.

Good luck with your search.

[Grimesy]

I have a 2005, Itasca 40AD and find it to be a nice coach. Have had some mechanical problems. A 12 dollar part malfunctioned with a 700 dollar labor price tag. This SOB caused me to lose my Jake Brake coming down the Sierras which in turn made me fry my brakes. Had a combination power steering pump etc start leaking, another 3 K to fix but those I think were just things that happened. There is a lack of overhead cabinets in the lounge area which may or may not be a problem.. The TV is old school so it needs a converter or replacement.
Do your home work but don't over analyze.

Don G. WIT 70041

[FIRE UP]

Originally Posted by Pusherdiva

Seeking input on 2004 Itasca Horizon 40AD. Seriously considering purchasing. Any input on the Freightliner Chassis, Cummins ISC 8.3 L turbo, 350 hp..ZF-IFS Front Air Suspension, exhaust brake, NeWay rear air suspension will be very much appreciated.

Pusherdiva,
Well, we have the "Little Sister ship" to what you're looking at. Ours is an '04 Itasca Horizon 36GD with the 330 CAT. The coach in general, is an outstanding coach. We love it. It's the Slate Blue and we get compliments on it's beauty, each and every time we're out in a campsite/RV park. Most think it's a new coach and are astounded that it's an '04. As for the quality, if I had to rate it on a scale from 1 to 10 and 10 being the finest possible, I'd say, it's around, oh, maybe a 7-8. With say, a Newel or a Fortravel being the "10" to compare it to.

The body and paint is outstanding. The interior is also very fine. I had to rebuild a couple of the drawers that were literally falling apart when we picked it up. No biggie. I've had to rebuild a bedroom slide ram that was leaking. What a seriously pain in the a$$ job that was. I had a "J1939" data link break on us that caused us to loose all gauges, cruise control, exhaust brake, and more while out on a trip. Another serious pain in the a.. to fix. I've had issues with the Onan generator but, that's ONAN, not Winnie or Itasca.

We have the "washed maple" interior with the brushed nickel hardware and it's so much lighter inside our coach than many others which is nice for guys like me that are "blind" and need more light. The drivers cockpit is well laid out and, for the most part, the gauges are easily readable from a normal driving position. My only complaint in that area is the fact that Itasca, in its effort to make as large of a galley/living room slide as possible on that side of the rig, made it too close to the back of the drivers seat. I cannot get as comfortable in the "lean back" of the drivers seat as I'd like to. I can move the seat forward to get what I want in lean back but, even with the adjustable pedals, it cramps my right foot/leg on the pedals. I'll live.

The layout of our compartments, amount of space, type of design, setup of a completely separate water and electrical compartments, slide out trays, and more, is very adequate for our storage needs. In fact, you can, as usual, "over carry" too much stuff very easily. The Freightliner chassis is a great unit and other than a couple of glitches here and there, I'd have another one in a heartbeat. The ride, while a good one, and a quiet one, is not quite as I thought it should be. But, it's still better than the previous "gas" coaches we've had. I'm now running 90 lbs. of air all the way around in the tires, based on the actual weight of the coach and, the recommendations of Michelins tire chart on line.

That makes for an even better ride. To many, engine access is not a concern because they have a shop or, Freightliner service center do most or all their work. On ours, it's not all that bad. The bed tilts up, and there's two steel covers that are secured with four screws each. That gives "fair" access to "some" of what can be done. I've had to replace the Aluminum radiator due to some corrosion/decay in a lower corner and, while having that radiator and CAC out, I had ample room for maintenance of pulleys, bearings, belts and more, at that time. But, once that's all re-installed, it's kind of a bear for any work like that to be done.

The handling of the coach, is to be expected, heavy. But, what does one expect, a Porsche? As long as you're not running a slalom course, it's very nice. The sound system for the "surround sound" is, well, I would put that as "adequate". I think it could be a lot better, especially when the TV is on. But, that's more or less a personal hearing issue.

If you ever get a chance, a good thing would be to go through the factory and see how things are done. And, the next best thing would be to view the TV show called: Ultimate Factories, Winnebago Vectra. That's a fairly informative show on the building of the Vectra which, at the time, is the straight across equivalent to the Horizon. I really like the fiberglass roof in comparison to the rubber roof we had on our Fleetwood product, the '99 Bounder.

I've not driven the 40 AD model with the Cummins engine so, I cannot relate to the power. We have the 330 CAT and, it does absolutely fine on flat ground and mild grades but, throw it against a serious one, like the one on the north end of Bishop CA, and it balks at it. Especially if you're towing. But, it's not a race car so, again, we'll live. I'd sure like to have a clutch fan so the noise back there would simmer down and, in fact, a nice gent has sent me all the plans to convert to one so, that's in the future for our beast.

Anyway, I'm sure you'd find the 40AD a very nice unit. Good luck.
Scott

[jerichorick]

Originally Posted by Pusherdiva

Thanks so much for the GREAT input! Learning Lots thanks to all your help out there! I am studying ...reading everything i can find,,, brochures,,,owner manuals, rv forums...Winnebago has great archives online!

BUT...i everytime i ask a salesman if there are any service records.. I hit a brick wall...they tell me everytime that due to privacy laws...they cannot give out any service records....i ask them...."why cant you cover up their personal info and copy that ?". They again reply...absolutely cannot....ARIZONA state law...to prevent identity theft and privacy ...so no service records! Sooooo we are flying blind as to any work or service that the rig has had...i will do proper diligence once we find a rig we want ...and before the deal is done....will have it inspected by Cummins and Freightliner.....but still its a shame that the service/repair records are not available when buying from a dealer.
Please continue with any additional input....it is so valuable! And thnks again!

If you can get the VIN Freightliner will tell you if they have any records of work done on it. The engine SN can give you info from Cummins.

My only caution about that style coach is the basement on the slide. If you are full timing and plan on carrying a load that adds up to around 300# on a slide (inside and under total) I would not recommend it. My '05 Vectra FD suffered greatly because we are full-time and have much to carry. A common problem with the basement box is the carrying bolt will break. You could drop the basement on the road!

As far as the chassis and drive train are concerned you can not get a better combination. To be satisfied get a couple of oil sample kits from Black Stone Labs and have the dealer pull a sample of oil and tranny fluid as described in the lab website. Ask the folks at the lab is they see any problems. If they are happy you should be too. You could even do this for the generator. But do this BEFORE the oil is changed by the dealer. Also check the batteries. Make certain that the house batteries are deep cycle and in good condition. The start battery needs to be relatively new. Run all of the systems on the coach as a drydock test. Run the EMS through it's paces with 50A service, if this coach has it, 30 and 20A selection.

I run Royal Purple oil in all of my equipment, coach, generator and car. If this coach really fits your needs and you go for it have the dealer change all of the filters and do the oil change with Royal Purple. Make certain that the tires are new or not more than 2 years old so that you can have some use of them before you need to change them.

If you have a Freightliner Oasis service center near by, that has an alignment center and scales, go there with the coach and have the radiator flushed, cap changed and the chassis height corrected for your regular travel load. Have the chassis tuneup done. Have the alignment done on all 4 wheel locations. (There are thing to do before you have this service done.)

Like others on this forum, I want your RVing experience to be the greatest and most trouble free, fun time for you. When you buy a coach you purchase trouble in the making. Be willing to nurse your coach back to good working condition when things go bad. With all of your refrigerator and chassis recalls being in order you should be fine. Spend several hours just operating things in the coach on the lot. Level it and operate the slides. Store the jacks and do it all over again. Know things are working before you commit.

I hope we are not overwhelming you with information. Choose wisely and you will benefit down the road.

Happy and blessed trails,
Rick

[Pusherdiva]

Wonderful information that is being shared here! Gonna ask kind of a worst case what if kinda question please? Let say the person who purchased the 2004 Horizon Itasca with the 350 hp Cummins ...on the XC Frightlner chassis brand new....and put 60,000 miles on it and never bothered to have the engine serviced...meaning oil and filter changes...and the same with the Allison Tranny....just ..didnt bother or didnt realize ..or just didnt care...but some how realized that it might need a quart or so now and then and added it.....(the sugg to have oil tested is a great one...and i will do that). But....lets say the senario above happened....how much life could that drive train have left in it if all the owner did was add oil occasionally? How much abuse can these Cummins ISL diesels withstand? I have been told that one that is properly maintained from the beginning should run 500,000 miles to 750,000 miles. I am just trying to get an idea how tough these engines...vintage 2004 are.

[Pusherdiva]

What is a blow by test ? What are you testing for ...what does it tell you about the condition of the engine? What would be a typical scenario that would lead to the neccessity of paying for one to be done on a rig your are seriusly considering making an offer on?

[FIRE UP]

Originally Posted by Pusherdiva

Wonderful information that is being shared here! Gonna ask kind of a worst case what if kinda question please? Let say the person who purchased the 2004 Horizon Itasca with the 350 hp Cummins ...on the XC Frightlner chassis brand new....and put 60,000 miles on it and never bothered to have the engine serviced...meaning oil and filter changes...and the same with the Allison Tranny....just ..didnt bother or didnt realize ..or just didnt care...but some how realized that it might need a quart or so now and then and added it.....(the sugg to have oil tested is a great one...and i will do that). But....lets say the senario above happened....how much life could that drive train have left in it if all the owner did was add oil occasionally? How much abuse can these Cummins ISL diesels withstand? I have been told that one that is properly maintained from the beginning should run 500,000 miles to 750,000 miles. I am just trying to get an idea how tough these engines...vintage 2004 are.

Pusherdiva,
There are many people in this world (guys mostly) that believe that oil, NEVER needs to be changed. They believe that the oil particles get more and more round, as time goes on. They mention the fact that you only need to add the "additives" every now and then.

Well, maybe it would work and, maybe it wouldn't. I've never been one to test their theories. I, along with about 99.9999% of the owners here, change their oil on a regular basis. Now, It's most likely that, that engine, is just fine. The term "blow by" is what's also known as "crank case pressure". Without going into a complete high school auto mechanics course here, engine blow by is created by the pistons, as the travel up and down in the engine bores. The rings, on the pistons, do a great job of "sealing" the piston to the cylinder walls. But, they don't seal it "perfectly". Some of the pressure developed as the piston travels up, gets by the rings.

And, in doing so, that pressure is now residing in the "Crank case". That pressure can get to the top of the engine area via passages etc.
Well, if there was no way of relieving that pressure, pretty soon you'd have some serious oil leaks, out of every seal, gasket etc. So, in an effort to olleviate that pressure, a "Blow-by" tube is created. And, normally the connection is at or near the top of an engine. The exit for that tube usually hangs below the engine some place.

Normally an engine like the one you're considering has very little (some, almost none) to medium blow by during idle. And, in the old days, as in pre-PCV valve era, the blow by tubes and, "blow by" was used to determine the engines age and condition, prior to a purchase of a vehicle. If there was a lot of blow by emitting from that tube, than you'd shy away from that car and move to another.

So, in your case, we all can give you advice on "maybe" what you should, or should not do. But, it's going to be your coach so, while it may cost you a bit, a really good opinion of just how good-a-shape that engine/trans is in, would be from a Cummins Service Center. Those boys have those engines apart on a daily basis. A lot of us do our own work, change oil, trans oil, lube, belts and other stuff but, not many actually tear down our own engines and rebuild them. So, if all the rest of the coach is appealing and addresses your needs and desires, I'd maybe take it to where I suggested and get, what I think, would be the most qualified opinion, on that particular engine and trans, not just Cummins and Allison in general. Just some thoughts here.
Scott

[jerichorick]

Good teaching, Scott and good advice.

I remember the old days hearing my dad talk of taxi cabs. He was told they never changed oil and they ran 24x7 most of the time. We have homes on wheels. Different conditions and engines. Never changing the oil just seems like a good way to destroy a great product. The oil testing I previously mentioned may be done at Cummins. I can't say for certain. I do know it is a good and valid test of what is happening within the engine over the life of the oil.

Choose wisely, Skywalker. Being stranded in a far galaxy is not a good choice!

Hope the best for you,
Rick

[FIRE UP]

Originally Posted by Pusherdiva

What is a blow by test ? What are you testing for ...what does it tell you about the condition of the engine? What would be a typical scenario that would lead to the neccessity of paying for one to be done on a rig your are seriusly considering making an offer on?

Pusherdiva,
I never answered your question(s) on the "Blow by" test etc. Well, if you read my version of "how" blow by is created. Incedentally, the term "Blow by" is used do describe the "Blowing by" of some of the pressure, created by the pistons traveling in the "up" direction. As stated, the rings on the pistons are designed to form a seal between the pistons and the cylinder walls. And, OIL does the rest of the sealing.

But, as time goes by and the engine acquires more and more miles, a number of things happen, inside the engine. Even though OIL does a pretty darn good job of creating a "barrier" between all the moving parts inside that engine, it is inevitable that WEAR is going t take place. No engines last for ever, some last more, some less.

So, as the engines hours and mileage add up, the cylinder bore, through the fact that the piston and, it's spring loaded sealing rings, have a constant pressure on those cylinder walls, have tendency to "enlarge". And, the rings themselves, loose temper and, wear out. As all this happens, more and more of the "pressure" created by the traveling of the pistons, gets by those worn piston rings and worn cylinder walls and down into the crank case. And, hence, more and more of the "Blow by" will present itself out the end of the blow by tube.

Now, as for the test. There are small, little devices that a tech can place onto the end of that blow by tube and, it will measure just what kind of pressure is in that crank case. There's a given standard for a normally operating engine and, a certain amount of the blow by is tolerated. But, when that standard is exceeded, that is one "gauge" they use to determine the operating condition of an engine.

In a gasoline engine, the spark plugs are removed and a "compression gauge" is inserted. The engine is cranked over a given number of times. The compression gauge tells, in "PSI" or, Pounds Per Square Inch" just how well the pistons and rings are sealing. In a new engine, the compression gauge will put out a certain psi. But, as an engine enters it's prime of life, the pressure will go up and, the blow by will decrease because, things like the rings and pistons, have the BEST SEALING CAPABILITY that they'll ever develop in that life span.

But, as time goes on, and the miles and hours rack up, that "perfect sealing capability" starts to depreciate. And, it only goes down hill from there.

So, now you've completed High School Auto Shop 1A.

So, the Cummins tech can do a test, to determine the BASIC condition of that engine. A really good tech "listens" to them to and tell how well things are operating, even in noisy diesel engines. Hope this info helps some.
Scott

[jhanan]

Did you get the 40AD model? I have another old curb side unit - the 34HD. When I plan to upgrade, I have thought about the 40AD model since it has curb side dinning. I also think I would like the entertainment system in the living room instead of over the windshield although it take a lot more space up. One thing about this layout is the street slide blocks the sink when pulled in - seems inconvenient on that one - since I often clean and work on my unit with the slides in when parked and no access to the kit sink seems to be one point. It is a big basement on the slide - I might run out of the super light weight stuff to put in on that side.

What do people think about the 40AD sink item as well as the curb side layout.

Thanks Jeff

[lajuene]

We use the sink all the time with the slide in. You can easily access it from the side instead of the front. The right side sink is a bit of a reach but the main, large side is right there and the faucet is easy to reach. Opening the cupboard above the sink is hard to do. You can really only access stuff on the right hand side when the slide is in and even then not very well but the sink is fine with slide in. Our big slide was broken for a couple weeks and we live fulltime in it an we were fine.