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07-17-2021, 09:18 PM
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#21
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Winnebago Master
Join Date: Jun 2020
Location: Dallas, Texas
Posts: 1,164
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mtn Charlie
A double male cord is a HAZARD at any time that either end is connected to a circuit or plug and the other end is exposed. UNDER NO CIRCUMSTANCES SHOULD IT BE CONSIDERED/ASSUMED SAFE. Assume=make an ASS of U or ME. Even if the cord is tagged, it is unknown what has occured at the other end, without updating/removing the tag.
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I don't know where it was established to be a double male cord? That may actually be an assumption? The OP said "I have a cord coming from my garage electrical panel that has male plug on it"
OP also said "From the home owner, it was installed by an electrician to connect his RV."
You state "UNDER NO CIRCUMSTANCES SHOULD IT BE CONSIDERED/ASSUMED SAFE. Assume=make an ASS of U or ME."
What if the Electrician installed a transfer switch similar to one below by Connecticut Electric?
by design there is a male plug in electrical enclosure with cover and it also comes with 30 amp cord that plugs in with a female end inside the enclosure and the other end has an exposed male end!!! This is very likely what OP saw. The exposed male end is PERFECTLY SAFE with no chance of being hot. And even if she did somehow find or make a Double female plug 30amp cord and connect to the RV, NOTHING would happen. She would get no power to her RV's transfer switch.
I agree with the point the thread has kind of gone viral with legitimate hazard conditions and scenarios, but not enough factual information from OP to make the assumptions that OP's situation is in fact hazardous
It could be as simple as this. A Husband and wife own a house. They have Transfer Switch for a portable generator and they have RV with it's own power pedestal. Husband not around; so wife tries to tell OP that cord is for the RV because the wife knows it goes to a generator or something ![Rofl](https://www.winnieowners.com/forums/images/smilies/rofl.gif) OP has not come back, husband has returned from trip or something and has likely clarified by now, and OP has power to their RV
__________________
2019 Sunstar 29ve; Toad Lincoln Navigator; RVi Brake 3/Tire Patrol; Roadmaster Nighthawk; Sumo Springs; Safe T Plus; Onan EC-30 AGS; 300ah Lithium; Orion XS; T-Mobile Internet; Southwire EMS Display 40301; Jet Flo Macerator; Alpine SPE500 Speakers; Visio M21D-H8R
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07-19-2021, 06:20 AM
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#22
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Winnebago Owner
Join Date: Sep 2017
Posts: 179
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generator connection to RV
Real life experience - although not directly related to male-to-male adapters, occurred in Baja California, Mexico, a place with no codes or enforcement. When I connected to a normal looking RV park power box that was supplied by a large diesel powered RV Park generator set (on @ 8pm, off @8am) then entered the RV, almost had a deadly experience with one foot on the dry ground and the other on the steel entry step, probably due to reversed hot and neutral wires.
Saw black flashes and had difficulty getting my foot off of the step from loss of mussel control. Same potential experience exists from male-to-male adapters.
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07-19-2021, 06:52 AM
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#23
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Winnebago Owner
Join Date: Sep 2017
Posts: 179
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"The exposed male end is PERFECTLY SAFE with no chance of being hot." TRUE but dysfunctional because it is intended as the generator INPUT not the RV output. The only time it is HOT is when the genset plugged into it is functioning. The power cord supplied is intended for one end to plug into the genset the other end to the transfer switch. There is no possibility of a male plug being HOT.
It appears that the recessed male connector is intended for the generator input not a RV output. Is that true? The transfer switch is not intended for use as an RV supply but could work if there is a 30 or 50 amp branch on the output side. Not clear to me if a GFI is included. Best stay with a box designed for RV use.
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07-19-2021, 08:57 AM
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#24
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Winnebago Master
Join Date: Jun 2020
Location: Dallas, Texas
Posts: 1,164
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Shedboy
"The exposed male end is PERFECTLY SAFE with no chance of being hot." TRUE but dysfunctional because it is intended as the generator INPUT not the RV output. The only time it is HOT is when the genset plugged into it is functioning. The power cord supplied is intended for one end to plug into the genset the other end to the transfer switch. There is no possibility of a male plug being HOT.
It appears that the recessed male connector is intended for the generator input not a RV output. Is that true? The transfer switch is not intended for use as an RV supply but could work if there is a 30 or 50 amp branch on the output side. Not clear to me if a GFI is included. Best stay with a box designed for RV use.
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Actually the recessed male connector is for ANY type of 120vac input. The point is that Connecticut Electra also provides a 30 amp cord that female end that plugs into the recessed male end, but leaves exposed a male plug on the the end.
The end point and not to diminish from any potential real type of hazard, is that the thread may have jump to conclusion (unintended & assumptive based). I am sure the OP is well aware of the dangers if it were in fact an exposed hot male plug as it is has been re-stated ad nauseum ![Horse3](https://www.winnieowners.com/forums/images/smilies/more/horse3.gif) . The OP only said that cord was coming from a GARAGE ELECTRICAL PANEL and had male plugs on the end. OP also said it was installed by ELECTRICIAN.
The statement made that "UNDER NO CIRCUMSTANCES SHOULD IT BE CONSIDERED/ASSUMED SAFE" was my focus as there are in fact safe scenarios where a male plug can come from a garage electrical panel. We don't have all of the info from OP to really judge. i.e. we don't know if that was really the power panel to supply power to the RV, some assume that it was? They also assumed it was a double male plug, the OP never said that it was. OP said coming from panel and installed by Electrician. We also don't know if RV owner wired his RV Generator as an option to branch or to supply power to the Home Transfer Switch, we never got that information?
I actually have the pictured 30amp Connecticut Electric Transfer switch in my home's garage, I keep a 10' cord plugged into it all the time 24/7 and it has male expose plug on opposite side of panel. When we lose power; I move my portable generator to back yard and run a 50ft 30amp cord with the female end into the recessed panel of ATS. Of course the male end plugs into my 3500 portable generator. Why do I leave the male end exposed? simply because the cord came from Connecticut Electric, and I wanted to use it ![Whistling](https://www.winnieowners.com/forums/images/smilies/whistling.gif) ; but it is not long enough to allow me to put my portable generator in the back yard. I also think it is a PITA to try to plug into that recessed panel given power is off and no lights
FWIW, I also have a 50/30/20 Pedestal made by Eaton that I use to supply power to the RV, and YES it has all female receptacles
__________________
2019 Sunstar 29ve; Toad Lincoln Navigator; RVi Brake 3/Tire Patrol; Roadmaster Nighthawk; Sumo Springs; Safe T Plus; Onan EC-30 AGS; 300ah Lithium; Orion XS; T-Mobile Internet; Southwire EMS Display 40301; Jet Flo Macerator; Alpine SPE500 Speakers; Visio M21D-H8R
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07-20-2021, 02:56 PM
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#25
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Winnebago Owner
Join Date: Sep 2017
Posts: 179
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1. "The OP said that cord was coming from a* GARAGE ELECTRICAL PANEL* and had male plug on the end."
There is no circumstance that this is a safe scenario. - The OP did NOT say a "SUBPANEL", did say "PANEL" (OP unfamiliar with "Service Entrance)". No NEMA or ICA codes allow this configuration (an UN-terminated, UN-labeled, exposed conductor) doesn't matter if hot or not. Any panel including transfer panels and subpanels that has more than one energy supply source WIRED to it (energized is not necessary) is required to be labeled at each termination, in this case at the PANEL/SUBPANEL, at the naked male plug and at the service entrance.
From a practical point of view, an un-terminated male plug represents "uncertainty" at best and deadly at worst. Some states do allow a pig tail to be disconnected and terminated with taped wire nuts in the source panel, conditioned on labeling at all (sub)panels.
2. "We also don't know if RV owner wired his RV Generator as an option to branch or to supply power to the Home Transfer Switch, we never got that information?"
We DO know, because the RV TR switch prevents the RV genset from powering the RV plug when the RV genset is in operation. A different scenario but the same safety fundamental of keeping naked male connectors (the RV plug) from being energized, in this case the RV plug is never energized from the RV genset, is isolated by the RV TR switch.
3. "OP also said it was installed by *ELECTRICIAN*. * there are in fact safe scenarios where a male plug can come from a garage electrical panel.*"
Disagree! Name a condition that the above could be true. Any exposed conductors represent uncertainty. NEMA even requires terminated panels or wires to be labeled in three places, at the termination, at the source (sub)panel and at the service entrance. Uncertainty means both fire and safety risk. Additionally, any panels supplied by multiple energy sources (main house supply and RV getset supply) require labeling.
4. Installed by "ELECTRICIAN" - a licensed electrician wouldn't do this, possibility of fines and losing license. See #6.
5. What happens to the RV when the RV genset is running and the house main is re-energized? How does the Connecticut transfer switch decide which supply to use and what is the timing/interaction between the Connecticut TR switch and the RV TR switch? Recall that most RV transfer switches delay for 10 seconds after the RV generator starts then break the RV pigtail connection and then connect the RV generator. In the above configuration, the Connecticut Transfer Switch would have to clone that behavior. Does it? What about voltage/utility line spikes? GFI protection?
6. The solution to powering the Connecticut Transfer switch from the RV genset is to use or install RV genset auxiliary output female receptacles located on the RV genset itself, thereby isolating all of the RV electronics from the house (more or less) and using a specialized connection cord, similar to that supplied by Connecticut. Although the issue of "energized male connector" is solved, a plethora of issues remain to protect the electronic equipment in the RV.
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07-20-2021, 06:16 PM
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#26
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Winnebago Master
Join Date: Jun 2020
Location: Dallas, Texas
Posts: 1,164
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Shedboy
1. "The OP said that cord was coming from a* GARAGE ELECTRICAL PANEL* and had male plug on the end."
There is no circumstance that this is a safe scenario. - The OP did NOT say a "SUBPANEL", did say "PANEL" (OP unfamiliar with "Service Entrance)". No NEMA or ICA codes allow this configuration (an UN-terminated, UN-labeled, exposed conductor) doesn't matter if hot or not. Any panel including transfer panels and subpanels that has more than one energy supply source WIRED to it (energized is not necessary) is required to be labeled at each termination, in this case at the PANEL/SUBPANEL, at the naked male plug and at the service entrance.
From a practical point of view, an un-terminated male plug represents "uncertainty" at best and deadly at worst. Some states do allow a pig tail to be disconnected and terminated with taped wire nuts in the source panel, conditioned on labeling at all (sub)panels.
2. "We also don't know if RV owner wired his RV Generator as an option to branch or to supply power to the Home Transfer Switch, we never got that information?"
We DO know, because the RV TR switch prevents the RV genset from powering the RV plug when the RV genset is in operation. A different scenario but the same safety fundamental of keeping naked male connectors (the RV plug) from being energized, in this case the RV plug is never energized from the RV genset, is isolated by the RV TR switch.
3. "OP also said it was installed by *ELECTRICIAN*. * there are in fact safe scenarios where a male plug can come from a garage electrical panel.*"
Disagree! Name a condition that the above could be true. Any exposed conductors represent uncertainty. NEMA even requires terminated panels or wires to be labeled in three places, at the termination, at the source (sub)panel and at the service entrance. Uncertainty means both fire and safety risk. Additionally, any panels supplied by multiple energy sources (main house supply and RV getset supply) require labeling.
4. Installed by "ELECTRICIAN" - a licensed electrician wouldn't do this, possibility of fines and losing license. See #6.
5. What happens to the RV when the RV genset is running and the house main is re-energized? How does the Connecticut transfer switch decide which supply to use and what is the timing/interaction between the Connecticut TR switch and the RV TR switch? Recall that most RV transfer switches delay for 10 seconds after the RV generator starts then break the RV pigtail connection and then connect the RV generator. In the above configuration, the Connecticut Transfer Switch would have to clone that behavior. Does it? What about voltage/utility line spikes? GFI protection?
6. The solution to powering the Connecticut Transfer switch from the RV genset is to use or install RV genset auxiliary output female receptacles located on the RV genset itself, thereby isolating all of the RV electronics from the house (more or less) and using a specialized connection cord, similar to that supplied by Connecticut. Although the issue of "energized male connector" is solved, a plethora of issues remain to protect the electronic equipment in the RV.
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Exactly, we don't know any of this without assuming because the OP did not provide enough info, nor did we allow her time to without seemingly everyone (14 out of the 1st 20 posts) piling on beating a dead horse.
OP despite her request for assistance may have read all of this hazard point overkill & the technical electricalnese and simply not come back? I wish she would, but I don't if I would to this crowd ![Facepalm](https://www.winnieowners.com/forums/images/smilies/facepalm.gif) Fact is there are circumstances where her situation was / is perfectly safe; regardless if she calls the Electrician that was quoted to have done the work to the house before she bought was licensed or not.
FWIW - A subpanel that is in a Garage that has electrical can easily be called a Garage Electrical Panel to any layman. If she was a Electrician the post would not have been required. I don't tell my wife or kids to go connect portable genset or RV to a Subpanel, if I did they would get confused because I technically have two subpanels. I tell them to plugin to the Garage electrical panel, or the outside electrical panel It is impossible for them to connect anything to either of the two incorrectly
__________________
2019 Sunstar 29ve; Toad Lincoln Navigator; RVi Brake 3/Tire Patrol; Roadmaster Nighthawk; Sumo Springs; Safe T Plus; Onan EC-30 AGS; 300ah Lithium; Orion XS; T-Mobile Internet; Southwire EMS Display 40301; Jet Flo Macerator; Alpine SPE500 Speakers; Visio M21D-H8R
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07-20-2021, 08:08 PM
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#27
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Winnebago Owner
Join Date: Sep 2017
Posts: 179
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It is my sincere hope that only the horse dies!
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